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Which GPS?


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  • #2231166
    Mark
    BPL Member

    @gixer

    Had the 64st for around 1 year now, it's by far the worst thing i've ever bought (outdoors gear wise) The latest software updates are better but that's not saying much as the device was pretty much not usable during the first few software updates. I've had the unit lock up several times, fail to log onto a single satellite during a 5 hour hike (my galaxy S5 logged on and kept a lock on fine though), i think i've only completed a couple of walks where my Ant+ HR strap and Tempe sensor kept a connection throughout the entire hike. Compared to my S5 the screen is tiny, the resolution is poor, the software is a absolute bug fest, i still can't get a bluetooth connection with my phone once the unit is turned off without deleting the pairing and re-pairing. For logging a route there is no way of starting or stopping the log except for just turning off the device, there is no way of locking out the buttons/switches so when it's placed in a rucksack or pocket you take you chances as to what happens. Worst of all though the Garmin support is absolutely terrible, all these bugs are well known yet updates come out at a rate that even continental drifts would get bored of waiting. It's a real shame as i've had a Edge 705 for many many years, it's been used, abused and bashed about but apart from the odd time it's not locked on and the fact it takes an age to lock on when it does (no GLONASS support). In comparison i've used my S5 in everything from torrential rain for 8 hours solid to 40c + hikes and the ONLY problem i've had is the rain/wet clothes playing tricks with the touch screen. With Viewranger running and the phone in Airplane mode i get around 7 hours use out of the phone, it locks on quickly and i've never not got a lock on, the screen is a useful size and has a great resolution, i can swap, change or use whatever mapping software i want, i carry spare batteries that are light and easy to change, plus the S5 is waterproof. My Galaxy S5 is 145g my GPSMap 64st is 200g is i use the lightweight Energizer Lithium batteries I can't see a scenario where i would ever buy a Garmin product again, i'm THAT disappointed in both their products and lack of after sales support, which is a shame because if you'd asked me before i bought the 64st i'd have said i'm a fan. The problem is that the mobile phone market is moving at a dramatically faster pace than the GPS market, 10 years ago even a poor GPS would be better than most phones. Now days a smartphone will be better in every scenario compared to a dedicated GPS. The good news is most folks have a smartphone these days, so it's just a case of picking the software and maps that work best in your area Cheers Mark

    #2231170
    Jerry Adams
    BPL Member

    @retiredjerry

    Locale: Oregon and Washington

    "Now days a smartphone will be better in every scenario compared to a dedicated GPS." will it make a track of your route? How long does it last until the battery run out? Garmin 60CSx takes maybe 24 hours of track om two AA batteries

    #2231171
    Eric K
    BPL Member

    @gwudude

    Locale: PNW

    Thanks for the input.

    #2231173
    Mark
    BPL Member

    @gixer

    "will it make a track of your route?" I'm a bit old school in that i still prefer to use real maps when possible, but being a bit of a geek i also like to go over my hike when i return home and look at my route, average speeds, elevation gains, heart rate etc etc Viewranger logs all these details and tracks. I also usually have Endomondo running in the background as well, as this is the software i use for logging my training so it's nice to have everything together. So yep there are many many ap's that will track your route, it's really just a case of finding the one you like best. How long does it last until the battery run out? Depends on what i'm doing or where i am. Earlier this year we had a disaster of a hike, it rained buckets ALL day, together with very strong winds and a ambient temp of around 3c it made for a "challenging" hike As we were cold, wet and starting to get exhausted i really didn't want to waste energy making wrong turns, getting my map out was risky due to the rain and my GPSMap64st had locked up 4 times in the first 2 hours. So i used common sense and my phone (running viewranger) to follow the route throughout the day. That's the shortest battery life i've seen from my phone and that was around 6 1/2 hours. As i say though i was checking the phone every few mins, plus the rain was playing havoc with the screen. I'm usually seeing at least 10 hours on a fully charged battery with the phone running in airplane mode. I like to carry a couple of options for batteries 1/ Is spare phone batteries. On my S5 these weigh 41g each On the downside changing them when it's raining hard is tough It's also tough recharging several drained phone batteries as it means keeping an eye on the charge and constantly swapping 2/ I carry either a Miller ML-101 of a Miller ML-202 charger/battery pack The ML-101 uses 1 x 18650 cell The ML-202 uses 2 x 18650 cells With the ML-202 i am getting around 4 days phone usage Good thing with the ML-202 is that i can charge 2 x 18650 batteries without having to keep swapping stuff out. The bad thing is if you need to charge on the go it gets a bit fussy with the charge cable, especially if you're still using the phone Should say, using fairly new (in good condition) Eneloops in my GPSMap64st i'm only getting around 8 hours use out of the 2 AA batteries. Several times the GPS ran out of batteries before my phone Cheers Mark

    #2231177
    Jerry Adams
    BPL Member

    @retiredjerry

    Locale: Oregon and Washington

    thanks that's weird, I use eneloops in my 60CSx which lasts at least 24 hours, not 8 hours. When it gets below 24 hours, which happens after maybe 20 discharge/charge cycles, then I'll replace the batteries. I notice it most when it get's cold, like freezing or colder. I thought 60 and 64 were about the same I have an Anker 10,000 mAh USB charger that I use for charging my radio. 7.5 ounces. I could use that, but I would probably want to get a bigger one if I had a smartphone too. Some day I'm going to have to replace my 60CSx I suppose I should join the 21st century and get a smart phone. I kind of object to having to pay $100+ a month…

    #2231182
    Mark
    BPL Member

    @gixer

    If it's working for you then i'd stick with it as long as possible. Each year new stuff and updates to older stuff is coming out, it's looking like smart watches are going to be the "next best thing", not sure i'd feel comfortable reading a map on a watch but i bet it'd be handy for directions to the next waypoint. I don't see that a GPS designer/Manf like Garmin can keep pace with tech giants like Samsung, Apple, HTC etc. These smart phone companies have millions to invest into research and design of new products, they also have the staff required to write and test software for these devices. Then there are the millions of folks out there that are producing hundreds of 3rd party ap's for these phones. I think this is why companies like Garmin are going more into fitness and watches now, a dedicated handheld (as opposed to products that are used on aircraft and shipping) GPS device just doesn't make sense financially or as a business prospect any more. Hopefully i'm wrong and Garmin release a ground breaking device later this year that'll blow smart phones out of the water. It seems from all the bugs and problems their products are experiencing (watches included) that they're putting devices out there that have not been tested properly, certainly the software on my 64st rendered it not usable (for me) for months, so my impression is they're rushing kit out there to try and play catch up. Difficult to think of anything that can be done to make a smart phone better as a GPS device. Fantastic screen resolution, plenty of viewing real estate, Ant+ support for my bike sensors, heart rate straps and Tempe my S5 is waterproof, has removable memory, has removable battery, is slim and pretty lightweight. Plus if you don't like a certain GPS ap you can uninstall it and download anyone of hundreds more, not the case with any pf my Garmin products. Would be nice to have a touch screen that's reponsive to the finger touch but isn't affected by rain, or a method of disabling the touch screen but still being able to lock/unlock the phone. Can you not buy a phone outright over there? Here in Greece i just went into a electronics shop and bought my phone, it's not tied to my phone contract.

    #2231207
    Paul Magnanti
    BPL Member

    @paulmags

    Locale: Colorado Plateau

    I suspect a hand-held consumer grade GPS will be going the way of the fixed lens point and shoot (P&S) camera: A rarity and mainly replaced by a smart phone. Much like P&S cameras, a case might be able to be made that a good consumer grade GPS is better than a smart phone, but it is no where as convenient and it is an extra expense most people don't want and perhaps need. Much like a camera, figure out what you need your GPS to do. Chris Townsend recently an article he wrote about electronic in the backcountry including GPS, phones and other devices. Well written and worth the read. http://www.christownsendoutdoors.com/2012/09/controversy-1-smartphones-gps-in-hills.html (First published in 2012, it he updated it this past summer IIRC)

    #2231210
    Jerry Adams
    BPL Member

    @retiredjerry

    Locale: Oregon and Washington

    Yeah, almost impossible for Garmin to compete I could buy a smart phone but then I'd also have to pay $100 a month to the cell phone company. Or I could pay more per month and they'd give me the phone "for free" I hadn't thought about touch screen not working when it's raining. I want a GPS that I can send text messages by satellite. And have a screen maybe 3" square, display fine resolution topo maps, take tracks of my route,… Smart phones don't seem to be going after the satellite function because 99% of users are within cell phone range. This would be useful for Garmin users market, so that may be a niche for them, except they aren't doing satellite that I know of. Maybe Delorme will make what I want. They're close now. I think Garmin sells way more GPSes for cars. Again, maybe not direct competition with smart phones. Much bigger market than hikers that want a GPS. The back cover on my 60CSx broke. Flimsy piece of plastic. I called, figuring they'd send me a new cover. They would… if I first sent them $30. I just fixed it with epoxy, a nail, and a strip of aluminum. It's been working as good as new for years. The strip of aluminum doesn't break like the flimsy plastic. I don't like Garmin service either.

    #2231232
    Mark
    BPL Member

    @gixer

    Paul, I too thought that a dedicated GPS with antenna would have far signal than my phone, i've tested and retested many times with several different dedicated GPS devices and in my tests that's simply not the case. One example was while uploading yesterdays hike, i had my phone and 64st next to each other on the desk in my office, my phone had a good lock on with a fairly strong signal, my 64st had no signal lock on at all. This is not just a one off, i've found this to be the case time and time again. Both devices have GLONASS support so you'd think the 64st with it's protruding antenna hump would have a distinct advantage, it's not the case in practice though unfortunately. I keep using my 64st mainly because i'm a tight git so want to get some use for my moneys worth, but it stays home more and more these days. Jerry, I hadn't thought about car GPS, well spotted, i think you're right I'm not much of a person for buying stuff on payments of any type, i don't own a credit card and tend to save up and buy stuff, so for me i'd sooner buy the phone outright rather than be locked into a contract. I agree satellite communication would be a great advantage, even if that's only with SMS messages

    #2231724
    Dean F.
    BPL Member

    @acrosome

    Locale: Back in the Front Range

    jerry, Iridium GO! is a unit to which your smartphone, tablet, or other device connects by Bluetooth, not unlike the old SPOT Connect. Actually, up to five devices can connect to it, from up to 100 feet- they describe it as a sort of a portable wilderness wifi hotspot. It allows satellite voice calling, SMS, social media use, email, photo sharing, GPS tracking, etc. In short, it looks like it makes Ryan's "Expedition Blogging" article from a year ago utterly obsolete. https://www.iridium.com/Products/details/iridiumgo It's 4.5"x3.25"x1.25" and 305 grams. Of course it's also expensive as hell- MSRP $850. But it would let you link a nice big iPhone 6, with the nice big screen. I kind of wish they still made the SPOT Connect. If I get an InReach I'm duplicating equipment just to get texting functionality, since I will always have my smartphone. SPOT still supports the SPOT Connect, but if I get one secondhand I would have no idea how much longer it will be supported.

    #2231735
    Jerry Adams
    BPL Member

    @retiredjerry

    Locale: Oregon and Washington

    if the InReach displayed topo maps it would be pretty good. Can you enter text to send or do you need a smart phone for that too?

    #2231747
    BlackHatGuy
    Spectator

    @sleeping

    Locale: The Cascades

    "Iridium GO! is a unit to which your smartphone, tablet, or other device connects by Bluetooth, not unlike the old SPOT Connect." Nice 'First Look" article here: http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/iridium-go-dixon.html

    #2231750
    BlackHatGuy
    Spectator

    @sleeping

    Locale: The Cascades

    "if the InReach displayed topo maps it would be pretty good. Can you enter text to send or do you need a smart phone for that too?" You can enter text on the inReach, but it's not fun, since you have to use a virtual keyboard.

    #2231759
    Jerry Adams
    BPL Member

    @retiredjerry

    Locale: Oregon and Washington

    "but it's not fun, since you have to use a virtual keyboard." "ok luv u" or "broke leg help" better than just wondering if some home calamity has happened or the wife worrying about a bear I wouldn't bother with "having wonderful time. weather great. I saw a bear but it ran away. how is everything at home? … I love you very very very very … very much xxx-ooo-xxx"

    #2231797
    Brad Rogers
    BPL Member

    @mocs123

    Locale: Southeast Tennessee

    I think that you can preprogram messages with the Inreach too so I figure you could pre program half a dozen messages that would say most everything you would ever need to (or hope to need to) say. I am thinking of getting one (or something similar) for longer off trail trips. I rented a Sat phone for a couple of trips in the winds and Alaska. Two way communication is VERY helpful in an emergency situation. One of the guys I went to Alaska with had an Inreach SE and the bush pilot did use it to chance the pick up time. I typed the confirmation message back to him and yes it was slow but ok for a one liner. I am hoping that they come out with a new model before my 2016 big trip. With the Inreach we didn't use it much but did send 2 messages home and turned it on a couple of minutes each night to see if we had any updates from the bush pilot etc. At the end of the 11 days in the backcountry the battery was 93%.

    #2231869
    Dean F.
    BPL Member

    @acrosome

    Locale: Back in the Front Range

    To answer jerry's other question, the InReach Explorer does function as a GPS and has a screen that displays maps, but the community consensus thus far is that it is an annoyingly small screen. The InReach SE does not function fully as a GPS- just as a communicator.

    #2231874
    Jerry Adams
    BPL Member

    @retiredjerry

    Locale: Oregon and Washington

    thanks, that's what I thought and like whoever it was pointed out, with smart phones having such good gps functionality and a huge market, it'll be tough for Delorme to justify upgrading to a bigger screen maybe smart phone makers will add satellite communication capability, but probably 99% of their users are within normal cell range

    #2231881
    Pedestrian
    BPL Member

    @pedestrian

    "maybe smart phone makers will add satellite communication capability, but probably 99% of their users are within normal cell range" The smartphone market is brutally competitive. At the present time the cost/complexity does not justify adding satellite capability especially considering the (relatively) tiny fraction of customers that might be willing to pay for it. Who knows what happens 5 years from now….. Dedicated GPS devices (like Garmin) have a tough road ahead – a much smaller and fragmented market. Delorme Inreach and other satellite communicators offer a highly differentiated product/service for which there are no clear substitutes.

    #2231882
    Mike W
    BPL Member

    @skopeo

    Locale: British Columbia

    "if the InReach displayed topo maps it would be pretty good" I hear this quite a bit and just don't see the logic. Keep in mind that the inReach (both Explorer and SE) pair with a smart phone which has topo maps. If you want topo maps, use the Delorme App with their mapping pre-downloaded (or just use a phone, GPS App). I'm sure the Delorme marketing folks are well aware of this and know that 90% of the hikers/backpackers out there aren't in the niche Ultralight market and will carry a smart phone (even if they didn't have an inReach). I've used my inReach Explorer with and without my smart phone. In either case, I end up pulling out my printed topo map if I'm trying to do any navigation. The inReach screen would be too small for topo but so are all of the Garmin screens IMO. Maybe a full sized tablet would be useful for mapping but anything smaller and I will go back to the hard copy. As far as the map screen goes on the Explorer, I actually find it very useful and have stopped carrying any other GPS device. The inReach Explorer's GPS functionality works better than my Garmin Foretrex (which is also a non-mapping GPS) because it is color and allows panning when zoomed in. The fact that I can pre-load tracks and use them for navigation is a huge plus with the Explorer (pre-loaded tracks are in one color and current track in another color). This was very confusing on the grey screen Foretrex and you can't zoom in and pan with the Foretrex which is very frustrating. As for typing on the inReach, it is tedious but functional without the smart phone. The simplicity of only using the inReach for typing often wins out even when I carry my smart phone (entering waypoint names is a good example).

    #2231895
    Jerry Adams
    BPL Member

    @retiredjerry

    Locale: Oregon and Washington

    I don't like carrying an extra device (smart phone) (I don't own a smart phone – although I should join the 21st century) I don't like carrying two devices with duplicate functionality (gps)

    #2231929
    Nick Smolinske
    BPL Member

    @smo

    Locale: Rogue Panda Designs

    I'm with Mike here – a bigger screen on the Delorme would cost battery life, and that would be a real shame. I'll usually navigate with a topo map, so maps on the GPS would be wasted on me. My primary use for a GPS is to record or follow tracks, so the Delorme is perfect for my uses.

    #2231930
    Jerry Adams
    BPL Member

    @retiredjerry

    Locale: Oregon and Washington

    I always carry paper map but never use it. Maybe at beginning of day paper map is easier to get big picture view of where I'm going for the day. I may be a Luddite and not have a smart phone, but I've at least progressed to gps topo map which is much more useful : )

    #2231936
    Gator Paddler
    BPL Member

    @gatorpaddler

    Can someone who has used the explorer clarify something for me? Does it actually have full mapping capability. When I look on the Delorme website, it shows a map track with no actual map on the screen, just a line drawn for tracks with a couple icons. Inreach Mapping Photo from Website It seems it would only be useful if there's actually a pre-loaded map (eg topo quad) on the screen. Must it be paired with a smartphone to have the track overlayed on an actual map?

    #2231960
    Pedestrian
    BPL Member

    @pedestrian

    No there in no map on the Explorer. In fact the Delorme maps (both web and on the phone) are awful. I always carry paper topos for where I'm going and would recommend taking along paper maps with the Explorer. I like the Explorer a lot for it's communication capability and the sensitivity of it's GPS. Unfortunately the maps are a major weakness. I wonder why Delorme still persists on maintaining their own maps when they could easily switch to something like Caltopo 24k (both Backcountry Navigator and Gaia GPS on Android offer this and is a great way to go).

    #2231972
    Gator Paddler
    BPL Member

    @gatorpaddler

    It's hard for me to understand why their flagship device is lacking real mapping capability. Delomre certainly has made decent GPS units, and they have decent satellite communicators, so why can't they marry the two? Is it battery life? Is there some technical challenge I'm missing? Marketing strategy? I recently bought a PLB in part because of the signal strength/reliablity but in part because it seems the satellite communication devices are still lacking in features. I would be severely tempted to purchase and carry an all-in-one device that also had a large, readable screen. Maybe by the time my PLB battery life is over there will be one.

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