Patagonia Nano Puff alternative?

I totally agree wirh Rog. I have the Revelcloud vest and IME, there is just no way i could wear a primaloft jacket while moving. My Montbell Thermawrap, on the otherhand, has proven to be a great jacket while hiking, and when used in conjunction with annArctyrex caedigan fleece (13oz), i was comfortable while moving down to 10F.

My primaloft vest proved to be too warm for most situations while moving and not warm enough standing still. I have basically used it while sleeping in extreme cold more then as an actual garment. I personally would not suggest ANY primaloft insulation for any jacket meant to be worn on the move.

The np has many fans.For me i dont need it while on the move and when im stopped it isnt warm enough-i run cold.My np is tight in the shoulders and arms and feels clammy.I will grab a downsweater or my big puffy instead.I wish it worked for me like it has for so many others because its so light and packable.To each their own.

I agree on wearing shelled insulation on the move. It would be too warm in most cases.

Example of using my windshirt and fleece mid layer combination in practice on the trail with a light base layer tee:

* Windshirt with base layer with cold wind or light/sporadic precip

* Windshirt and base layer when topping out on an exposed ridge or downhill walking when exertion has lowered and it is too cool for the base layer alone.

*Fleece mid layer with base layer for additional warmth with good moisture transfer and breathability. As above with situations with less exertion, like level and downhill walking.

*Windshirt and fleece together for rest stops and camp.

*Fleece plus rain gear for wet rest stops and cold precip or precip with lower exertion, as with the windshirt. Wet rest stops will often find me damp from exertion with rain gear. Adding a fleece layer will allow me to continue to dry out without getting chilled (hypothermic) where a thin shelled insulated item just traps the moisture and may get my main insulation item wet as well.

*Windshirt, fleece and rain gear all together for colder rest stop or camp.

*Fleece for sleep to extend the range of my sleeping bag or quilt.

*Wearing the fleece mid layer alone while my base lyer dries from washing or wet with perspiration.

The real crux of my argument concerns how a thin insulated item fits into a coordinated UL clothing system, particularly where a windshirt is included. With the windshirt, you are already halfway there. Adding yet another pair of shells and some light fill doesn't make sense to me, especially when those shells don't breathe well and the combination isn't all that warm. The Nano Puff ends up being a single purpose item that is only useful in a limited temperature range at rest.

The argument is very similar to the issues with soft shell jackets: additional weight with limited protection from cold or rain. If you have a windshirt, an insulation layer and a rain shell, there's little need for a soft shell.

Dale:
> Adding yet another pair of shells and some light fill doesn't make sense to me,
> especially when those shells don't breathe well and the combination isn't all that warm.

Except that those pairs of shells and light fill is warmer than windshirt + fleece, and lighter than a fleece. You're taking multiuse to an extreme – trying to apply multiuse for multiuse's sake, not for any practical reason.

To get the same warmth as a Nano Puff, you need to get a 200 weight fleece, which weighs more and packs much larger. This isn't even to mention that when when I need a 100 weight fleece on the move, for camp, I need a down jacket with about 2-3oz of fill (~2x as warm as a Nano, ~3x as warm as fleece + shell). For 200 weight fleece on the move, I'm needing something like a 7oz down fill jacket for camp – VERY cold conditions.

Fleece for camp insulation never makes sense to me, sorry. The only reason I bring fleece, is when I need it for warmth when moving. It's that simple. Your points just don't make sense.

That said, for my dry climate in CO, I prefer down jackets. I use my Nano Puff clone as a 'belay' jacket for backcountry skiing – something that I can use to add a bit of warmth if a storm moves in, and something that won't collapse if I've built up moisture in my baselayer/softshell. If I lived in a wetter environment, where my baselayer and windshirt might be damp throughout the entire day from light rain, humidity or mist, I'd use my Nano Puff clone in summer, as well.

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Softshell jackets work a little better than windshirts in 3 situations for me:

1) They breath a bit better than windshirts. I like them a bit more for cold weather activities like Rog mentions, when they'll stay on most of the time, and the packability/weight/quickdry of a windshirt isn't much of a benefit. I find I end up adding/removing a softshell less than I do a windshirt, because of the breathability. (5 CFM for the best windshirts, 10-15 CFM for most softshells).

2) When you're going to be dealing with a rock abrasion, when climbing, they work better than a windshirt. Again, like #1, the benefit here is small enough, that I'll choose the softshell only if it's cold enough that I'm going to be wearing it most of the time.

3) They are nice for backcountry skiing and cold weather mountain biking (when you NEED it for the entire descent). A windshirt makes a HUGE amount of noise when descending, and is quite obnoxious. I always choose a softshell for these activities, purely for this reason (and abrasion resistance for mountain biking).

del

Greg, How does this jacket fit you? with the waist and the length?

Check out golite.
http://www.golite.com/Mens-Selkirk-Ultralite-800-Fill-Down-Jacket-P47040.aspx

Rick wrote, "Dale, the more you expound the more I am baffled. You seem to imply a rain shell alone is functionally just as warm as Nano"

I missed this reply and thought I should clarify, although it has been several months.

I don't think that a rain shell is as warm as a Nano Puff. I do think that an R1 or Power Stretch fleece plus a windshirt is as warm as a Nano Puff, breathes better and can be used in several combinations. My premise is is that IF you are carrying a windshirt, the thin insulated jackets like a Nano Puff are a duplication and of limited use and value. As far as "stupid light" goes, I have long been an advocate of 100g insulated garments over the 60g versions.

The gist of it is that if you are going into conditions that may require an insulated garment, AND you also use a windshirt, then the insulated piece should be sufficiently warm; otherwise, the windshirt/mid-layer fleece combination is more useful. I am advocating the use of a 16oz item over a 10oz version.

I own and and have used all this stuff. I hold that while the Nano Puff is popular, there are more useful alternatives. What works for running errands, a chilly summer morning or day hiking in moderate conditions can be different than a versatile 3-season clothing system that balances weight, warmth. breathability, and wet weather performance.

A direct contender as an alternative to the industry standard Nano would be the Eastern Mountain Sports Titan pullover. It doesn't have quite as much insulation but that is mostly as best I can tell because it has a much trimmer cut. It also has a slightly beefier shell, making it a bit more likely for me to actually wear it when combined with it's lower ownership cost. I use the heck out of it as it's not so warm that I sweat instantly, but it's low profile enough for example to slip over a windshirt, midlayer, or light softshell and still fit under something trim like a Pata M10 Jacket.

I'll not weigh in on the rest of the discussion as to the merits or uses of jackets like the Nano or the Titan… not enough time in the day for that!

[Disclaimer: I worked for EMS for a number of years but havn't done so for nearly as long now so I have no real allegiance to speak of one way or the other]

MEC uplink 150$ list price for the hooded version … 60g/m PL1 … no side panels so its more a "belay" style jacket

http://www.mec.ca/product/5025-734/mec-uplink-hoodie-mens/

note that the vest and hoody have 60g, but the unhooded jackets they are clearing out have only 40g, which is why they are clearing them out, presumably to be replaced with a newer version

;)

Joe–It's a boxy cut, kind of like a Patagonia Snap-T-style fleece pullover, if that's any help. I'm 5'4" and have the medium, because that's what was on sale when I bought it. It comes down below my waist and the elastic (not drawcord) on the bottom keeps it relatively snug. But when I tried on a small in the store, which I'd usually wear, I found I preferred the medium for ease of putting on and taking off, since the jacket has no stretch other than the waistband.
I noticed on the LL Bean website, however, that they only have XL and XXL of this right now; seems they are clearing it out in favor of a full-zip version. They seem to do this a lot with their newer designs. I have a pair of softshell pants from them that are amazing for cold weather hiking that they only sold for a year before they disappeared.
Hope that helps.

I kind of agree with what Dale said, perhaps with this exception: I rarily need a fleece so even in inactive, above freezing situations, I use a 50 g/m2 synth jacket (so not a pull-over) instead of a fleece it replaced. That works for me. Maybe YMMV. I am looking though at a warmer jacket currently, because I find the 50 g/m2 not warm enough.