World’s Lightest Canister Stove with Auto Ignition

Very interesting. Thank you for that, Rick.

And, to my mind, all the more reason to doubt that there’s any “magic” in one means of holding back the gas vs. another (in terms of cold weather performance). That’s really all a valve of either type does: It holds back the gas. The Lindal valve in a canister of gas is essentially just a very sophisticated hole in the canister. The stove with it’s valve plugs into the hole. Absent a valve, the gas would rush out uncontrolled. All the valve does is hold back the gas. Open up the valve, and the gas rushes out to the degree that there is pressure in the canister. The valve is a means of restriction only. The valve can hold back what pressure there is; it cannot create pressure.

HJ
Adventures in Stoving

Thank you Rick. It's easy to understand why the Soto has the ability to regulate the low pressure during cold weather. The typycal needle valve will let the fuel "gush" out with 1/2 turn of the valve. It does not have the precise control over the low pressure.

If I recall, the Soto has 6 turns of the handle for full open. Now that's a lot of control. And that's the "magic" of the Soto.

> the Soto has 6 turns of the handle for full open.
That is entirely a function of the angle of the needle valve. Many stoves are designed to only need a 1/4 turn. Some of the recent Asian stoves need several turns to get full power. There's no magic, just what marketing thinks the user would prefer. Me, I prefer a couple of turns.

Cheers

del

the Micro Regulator makes the stove a little safer in case of accident by controlling the release of the liquid fuel.

Hmm. Not sure I’d want to experiment with that!

HJ
Adventures In Stoving

Roger, this regulator is not your run-o-the mill needle valve type. It has the ability to micro manage your fuel at low pressure allowing better efficiency in cold weather.

Take another look at this beauty:

Hi Dan

You might like to read our article about pressure regulators. It was published some time ago.

Basically, that pressure regulator IS a needle valve, with some extra springs etc. All the magic properties ascribed to it are total BS, made up by the spin doctors to get you to hand over your wallet. Some of the claims are absurd; the rest are either stupid, irrelevant, or false.

I will add that the worst claims seem to have come from the distributors, not the SOTO company.

As far as efficiency goes – that is a function of the pot diameter and the user. Turn the stove up full bore and you get low efficiency. Old news.

Cheers
Roger Caffin (PhD, physics)

"Basically, that pressure regulator IS a needle valve, with some extra springs etc. All the magic properties ascribed to it are total BS, made up by the spin doctors to get you to hand over your wallet. Some of the claims are absurd; the rest are either stupid, irrelevant, or false."

Isn't that truth!?

More stuff in that assembly to break or wear out.

I see a lot of gear/equipment/technology that is marketing-driven these days. KISS.

– Nick Gatel (PHD in Experience)

Thank you roger. That says a lot.

this regulator is not your run-o-the mill needle valve type. It has the ability to micro manage your fuel at low pressure allowing better efficiency in cold weather.

Actually, a regulator valve doesn’t manage flow, at least not in the sense of say the way you could have a computer managed environmental control system in an office complex. The regulator valve is set by the user. The valve then just tries to maintain a constant flow. If the user sets the valve on high, then the results are constantly inefficient. :)

In other words, there is no optimization routine built into the valve. What you set is what you get — so long as there is sufficient pressure in the canister to support that setting.

Soto hasn’t made any claims that the valve will allow greater efficiency. There has been much bally-hoo that the stove is more effective, i.e. that the Soto MicroRegulator will be able to function well at colder temperatures than conventional needle valved stoves, but no one has claimed that the Soto MR is more efficient (uses less gas to get the same job done).

HJ
Adventures in Stoving

It seems like the stove has little to do with efficiency – it just lets out fuel. Maybe if there was too much or little air or the burner could cause incomplete burning.

The windscreen, pot, heat exchanger,… are what effect efficiency.

With canister stoves, that’s pretty much true. Typically, how you use it has a lot more to do with efficiency than the stove itself (unless the stove is just utter junk). One of the most important things is the valve, but not needle versus regulator: Use it to turn the stove down. :)

HJ
Adventures In Stoving

The basics of fuel efficiency:
-Turn it down (use a lower flame)
-Use a windscreen (not a full 360 degree one with an upright stove though)
-Use a lid

Pot selection is also important. Wider is better. A heat exchanger pot is of course great, but heat exchangers do add weight. Supposedly darker colored pots add efficiency too, but compared to the other factors, I’m not sure that pot color is as much of a concern.

That makes sense that turning it down improves efficiency

I wonder at what point it's too low? It's constantly loosing heat, so the longer you take to boil, the more heat you're losing.

It's a regulator of beauty:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJ66oRH7cBA&feature=youtu.be

I believe everything SOTO says about it being more efficient. I suspect they have engineers with PhD's in just about everything. They sure do make great products.

Yeah, we have all seen that video. A masterpiece of spin doctoring and carefully designed BS. I could create exactly the same video effects myself with two identical stoves.

But everyone is free to believe what they want. It's a free world.

Cheers

I wonder at what point it’s too low? It’s constantly loosing heat, so the longer you take to boil, the more heat you’re losing.

Yeah, if you turn it down ultra low, you’ll loose more heat to the environment than you’re adding to the system, and your pot will never boil. If you’ve picked a sheltered site and you’re using some kind of windscreen, you should be able to go fairly low. I think for most people the real issue will be more one of patience. Will people really put up with a 15 minute boil time when they could have a 5 minute boil time? Still, it’s worth experimenting with and finding a happy medium that works for you. Of course in colder or windier conditions, you may have to turn things up a bit in order to keep boil times more reasonable.

HJ
Adventures In Stoving

"I could create exactly the same video effects myself with two identical stoves."

Let me guess: Using different gas mixtures? Provided you don't just turn one stove down by hand.

It’s all about pressure. Set up a situation where the pressure is quite high in the beginning but much lower (but still sufficient) toward the end, and the MicroRegulator will come out looking like a champ.

The only problem of course is that those aren’t real conditions. Out in cold weather, your pressure starts low and only gets lower. When there is insufficient pressure, I don’t care what kind of valve you put on a stove, you’re not going to get good performance. Period.

For those who may doubt that such is true, I invite you to look at my post, Advantages (?) of Regulator Valved Stoves, Part II. Take a look at the second video on that post where I compare a needle valved stove to the MicroRegulator. It’s taken at the end of a burn. Both canisters are cold, neither one has pressure, and neither stove has good performance.

Again, the MicroRegulator is a fine stove (see my review). If I were going to use a windscreen suspended from a pot, the Soto MicroRegulator would be my first choice for the stove to use with that kind of set up. But as for a cold weather advantage in actual field conditions? No.

HJ
Adventures In Stoving

When I first turn on a conventional canister stove, I'll turn it up to a reasonable level.

Then, after a minute or so, due to evaporative cooling inside the canister, the pressure will drop, and the stove will go down to a low level.

It's gradual, so usually I don't notice it until it's way low, then I'll turn it up back to a reasonable level.

This is especially true when it's cold and/or there is less fuel in the canister.

With the regulator, I don't think this would happen.

So, there is some utility to the regulator. It's kind of annoying when I notice the flame level has gone down and it's taking forever to heat up.

But, it's not annoying enough for me to worry about it much. And the Soto people don't talk about this.

The Soto demonstration did nothing to demonstrate efficiency. As the canister cools you do not need to adjust the Soto, but you do need to adjust the non-regulated stove. That is the advantage of the regulator, and it is the ONLY advantage. In that video they could have simply turned the other stove up to match the Soto.

The Soto demonstration did nothing to demonstrate efficiency.

Yep. There’s nothing about a particular valve that would necessarily lend itself to greater efficiency.

What you set is what you get.

Set the valve to a high flame, you’ll get poor effciency.
Set the valve to a low flame, you’ll get good* efficiency.

HJ
Adventures In Stoving

*or at least as good as you’re going to get for a given set up. You still need a good overall set up, particularly a windscreen, if you want decent efficiency. A low flame is just one part of the overall equation of efficiency.

Jim wrote
> Again, the MicroRegulator is a fine stove
Oh yes, the stove itself is well made and works well, and I said that in the article. It's all the marketing spin which stinks.

Cheers

del

In the “tips” section of the SOTO manual it explains the SOTO stove requires 1.5 turns vs. 0.5 turns for the common needle valve stove to start letting gas out for ignition. To reach full power the SOTO requires several more turns while the needle valve is already pretty much wide open with another 0.5 turn. Indeed, we actually see this valve turning “difference” in the video.

Of course there are needle valves and then there are needle valves. There’s no law that says “Thou shalt have a short taper.” A needle valve can be designed to have a “long” taper or a short one. That’s entirely up to the designer.

Actually the same is true in the case of regulator valves: They can open up right away or they can take a number of turns. I’ve used the following: The MSR Reactor, the Jetboil Sol, and the Soto MicroRegulator. The Soto MicroRegulator has by far the best fine control over the flame. Ever try to simmer with an MSR Reactor?

HJ
Adventures In Stoving