Thoughts on Rain Gear (JMT)

Hi Bob,

"Forgive me, but I have only been to Louisiana in the summertime, so I had no idea that you knew about cold and wet."

Newton does cold and Newton does wet but Newton does not do cold and wet! ;-)

Lately I have been doing my longer hiking trips in Virginia. On my last outing we encountered cold but zeroed out on the one rain and snow day.

Thanks for the info about the Liberty Ridge Pants Kit.

Party On,

Newton

I'm resurrecting (and hijacking) this post for the sake of my diminishing sanity…

Ok. I read. I study. I review SOTM reports. I shop. I read some more. And I am no closer to being comfortable with my clothing choices for the JMT than I was a month ago.

Sooo…sorry to be a noobie pest, but how does this look…particularly rain gear?? I mean, take frogg toggs. No it hails. Take a windshirt AND a shell. Take rain pains, take chaps, take wind pants…..I DON'T KNOW!!!! Argh!!!!

We are leaving July 29 from happy isles. I hate ponchos. I'm cold blooded (from Chicago). I have virtually NO mountain experience (8 days in the southern Winds last year; gorgeous weather the whole time). None. Nada. I am truly a noob.

Worn:
MH convertible pants vs nylon shorts/wind pants (leaning to the latter)
Merino 1 long sleeve
Patagonia active briefs
Bra TBD
Darn tough 1/4 cushion socks
Salomon XA ultra 3D blah blah (non GTX version)
White rock sun hat

Carried:
Montane featherlite pants (wind, NOT rain pants)
Rab demand pullover (10 oz, eVent)
Montbell alpine light parka
Houdini windshirt
Extra merino 1 long sleeve shirt (maybe merino 2 for variety?)
Extra 1/4 darned tough socks
Extra patagonia active briefs (sorry guys, we girls DO need a second pair)
Black rock gear hat
Ibex liner gloves
Arcteryx AR tights (for sleeping, insulation)

Here are my questions:
1) I can't imagine it's worth $250 to save 2 oz on a different rain jacket…
2) will the wind pants be adequate for lower limb protection from rain/etc?
3) from what I've read it IS beneficial to have both the rain and the wind jackets, right? If I DID get a lighter rain jacket (say a minimus or something)can that double as the windshirt?
4) I just feel like I have a lot of jackets………could I swap out the MB down parka for a thermawrap vest to use with the demand (and both shirts if necessary?)

Anyway, just feels like a lot of clothes, but I have virtually NO mountain experience here so I don't really know what I really need…know what I mean??

Jennifer – the weight issue aside, it all depends on if you are a worst case or best case planner when putting together your clothing and gear list.

there seems to be an awful lot of Best Case planners on this web sight.

I've seen enough bad weather that I tend to plan for worst case.

What kind of planner are you ?

Jennifer,

I, too, don't have a lot of experience in the Sierras. But, that's ok, they will still let you (and me) on the trail. : )
You have a good clothing system above, even if you take every piece listed. You have the ability to carry maybe 8-16 oz less with judicious choosing. However — carrying that 8-16 oz won't ruin your trip, as long as you've given careful consideration to what works for YOUR JMT trip, i.e., are you going to speedhike it less than 10 days? Are you going to take 3 weeks or more? Are you going to take lots of side trips up peaks? Are you going to carry a heavy camera set-up that needs to be offset by less ounces somewhere else?

(1) I wouldn't spend $250 for 2 oz unless it is a jacket that you want to have for other hikes down the road, not just for the JMT. I would spend $15 on a DriDucks/FToggs jacket, however. If it rips, who cares? If it sits in the bottom of your pack the whole trip, who cares?

(2) If you choose the windshell pants, you do already have the Arc'Teryx tights as insulation. The shorts-tights-windpants would be a good system and should give you adequate rain protection. The difference between my favorite hiking shorts right now and my favorite hiking pants is about 3-4 ounces, so not anything to get to worried about. Just choose a system of layers that gives you a rotation of pieces that will protect you from sun and rain, allow you to swim if you want, and give you something to put on in camp if you have been caught in a storm (sleeping quilt draped over your bare legs will work here too!).

(3) I carry my windshirt and rain jacket on most trips and I would do so on the JMT without thinking about it. You do see some CA folks here on BPL using just one jacket for both windshell and rainshell, but I think that is often in places other than the high Sierra or on short trips. I think CA is just a place where that is possible.

(4) A lot of jackets: I wouldn't take just a insulated vest into the mountains on a 2-3 week hike. It doesn't seem enough and the weight differences just aren't that great to chance it. Your Alpine Light lists at 12.2 oz (MB's site). You could go with a UL Down Parka (8.3 oz) but you'd have to spend $175 to save a few ounces and have a nearly similar (in function!) jacket. You already said you run cold, so it doesn't seem worth it.

My take-away message: trust yourself, you've already got a great kit to pick-and-choose from. Maybe buy a Driducks jacket just to have in your arsenal of jackets.

"from what I've read it IS beneficial to have both the rain and the wind jackets, right? If I DID get a lighter rain jacket (say a minimus or something)can that double as the windshirt?"

Depends on breathability, how much you sweat, how fast you walk and temperature. As I understand it windshirts breath better, but I'm quite new to them and have always just used a Gore Pro Shell jacket for wind and rain protection and (almost) never had any problems. But I know people who can't stand wearing any membrane clothes and who only wear them if it's raining really hard, so for them this is not an option.

"I spent Saturday night having an argument with a friend of mine about schrader vs presta valves for a mountain bike. And I enjoyed it."

Presta is only required for skinny road-bike rims, where you don't want to weaken the rim with a 5/16 hole. Should always carry a presta-valve adaptor in your seat bag. Schrader valves FTW!

Jennifer: I carry a Rab Demand; it's bombproof. I don't carry my Houdini because to me it's redundant. I hike mostly in the Sierra and during the days I'm in a shirt. If I stop at a pass and it's windy, on goes the Rab which is much better at wind blocking than the Houdini. Come evening I put on layers and the Rab which is warmer than the Houdini. If it rains, you want the Rab. So that's my thinking. You save the $250.00 AND the extra oz.s that a new shell would gain simply by leaving the Houdini at home. And you have the peace of mind of knowing that you have a top notch rain shell.

Good to know Jeffrey. I just feel like I have sooo many jackets on that list!!

Keep the RAB Demand, it's a great shell. Personally, if it's going to be chilly, I'd get a RAB Boreas and carry that instead of the Houdini. I used one in the Sierra last August and loved it – wore a fairly light baselayer shirt, put on the Boreas when it got windy/chilly/lightly drizzly and kept going (breathes great, blocks just enough wind to help in that department, but not as much a true wind shirt), and then threw on my rainshell when it got too cold or too rainy. That combo kept me quite comfortable the entire trip.

I'm not a fan of cold and wet hands when hiking, so other than the Boreas, the only other thing I'd add to your list is some light waterproof mitts. I've even got an extra set I could loan you for your trip so you don't have to spend money, just ship 'em back to me when you finish.

Might also look at light rain pants instead of light wind pants. My legs never get cold when I'm hiking unless it's a cold rain, so I never use wind pants, but I certainly use rain pants. FWIW.

Do the Sierras have a monsoon season in the summer? Here in Colorado I only make a point of carrying my Rab Drillium eVent pants regardless of weather forecast during the ~ 6 weeks or so from late June to early August when heavy rains are a good possibility. And still I rarely have needed them. Most of the time I carry my Montane Featherlite pants and they are more than enough for a prolonged shower and they dry superfast. That being said, I always carry the Rab Demand jacket, year round. To me, wet legs are less crucial than a wet torso.

I do have a pair of REI soft shell gloves that did unexpectedly well in Patagonia, and I may bring those instead of the wool ones. The weight is nearly identical, so it's just sort of which one I like better; maybe the water resistant ones would be better?

The wind pants are new for me. I've been using them on spring dog walks and they've been great…my first hiking trip with them is this coming weekend, so we'll see. This is most definitely one piece I'm not sure about.

I am feeling much better about the demand, so thanks for that. It's such a great jacket I really do like it…

"Do the Sierras have a monsoon season in the summer?"

Not exactly. The winter is when the most precipitation falls. For most of California, the rains all stop by May, and then it stays completely dry until about October. The Sierra Nevada is a bit different, mostly due to the high elevations. The summer there is unpredictable. It used to be that the weather pattern was for a rain shower from 1 until 3 p.m. on most days. But then if you try to count on that, it will go completely dry for a week or two. If you try to count on it being dry, it will rain some for ten days straight.

So, if you go without any rain gear at all, you are begging for a deluge. If you take good rain gear and keep it handy, it will never get used.

Last August I was out for five days, and I got rained on for 2-4 hours each day. It was never of monsoon intensity.

–B.G.–

Bob – Thank you for your succinct explanation. I learned more in your reply than anywhere else on the forum today. Our weather patterns sound similar, but it sounds as though summer precipitation is less 'reliable' but when it happens it's longer lasting in the Sierras than in the Colorado high country. Our deluges are pretty intense, but tend to be over and done with in less than an hour most of the time. Prolonged heavy rain is unusual, but not out of the question. And yes, most of our precipitation should be in winter also, but the last two years Mother Nature seems to have forgotten that. Still, my softshell pants get more use than my hardshells most years.

Jennifer – Definitely feel good about the Rab Demand. I find it just long enough, with a terrific hood that provides great coverage and is really adjustable. In three season use I've never missed having pit zips, although for winter trips I'm considering a heavier-duty eVent jacket with a few more bells and whistles. Make sure it's clean before you leave for the trip to maximize the DWR. As for the Featherlite pants, maybe you'll get an opportunity to test them out in a spring Chicago storm. I've found they work well at altitude in warm and wet conditions, but they won't be as comfortable if the rain is falling in ambient temps in the 30s. If you're facing conditions like Bob mentioned, they will wet out, but they should dry quickly once you reach camp assuming decent airflow and shelter.

"Our deluges are pretty intense"

I do recall one trip on the Keyhole Route of Long's Peak. I thought I was going to drown.

–B.G.–

Jennifer: It's true that you can't predict the weather, even in the Sierra, from months out. However, your late June starting date puts you in the best possible window for good weather–outside of afternoon thunder storms, which are not a problem if you stay off the passes during lightning strikes.

Bob's comment about bringing rain gear so that you won't have to use it is true. But the odds are that you'll have terrific weather for your trip. And it will be warm, even if it rains. I grew up hiking in the Pacific Northwest and the Sierra are a lot easier to pack for!

Maybe check the 10 day forecast just before your hike and make last minute adjustments based on that. I always bring layers and a rain shell, but never rain pants unless I see rain in the forecast. Of course, you'll be out for longer than 10 days, so it depends on what you're comfortable with.

"Maybe check the 10 day forecast just before your hike and make last minute adjustments based on that."

That is kind of funny for Sierra Nevada backpackers. The weather forecasts always include some variation on this phrase: Isolated afternoon thunderstorms.

That means, if it gets right over you, you get wet. In many cases, however, you can watch the rain storm go by ten miles away.

–B.G.–

Yeah but I interpret "isolated afternoon thunderstorms" to mean one to four hours of rain. You can wait these out high and dry under a big tree or just hike on through at lower elevations. It's the fronts coming in from the west, or that damned monsoonal moisture coming up from Mexico on the east side, that cause sustained rain problems. A good weather site will show these.

Jenifer- I am a california Kid also.

I usually carry frog tog rain pants no matter the season in the sierras. If you are as you say a "noob". I would suggest you carry them. Now I dont always use my rain gear even if i have it but carrying it is a no brainer for me.

Wind pants? I dont see a function for these while moving. but I could see you wanting to slip these on when night starts to fall and it gets a little colder(frog toggs could do the same). But during the day it will be either to hot to wear these or raining and these arent water proof.

1. If your jacket works and is 10oz stick with it.

2. No, not to me. Most wind pants will not stand up to anything more than a sprinkle. Driving rain will seep right through.

3. I dont see the point of bringing both a rain jacket and a wind shirt. but a LOT of people would disagree with me. Usually saying the wind shirt is to light to leave at home. I use my UL paty down sweater where most use there wind shirt.

4. Rain shell, down jacket these two I never leave home with out. with my Arctyrex alpha Sv, UL Patty down sweater and frog togg rain pants I feel safe. I could sleep leaned up against a tree if I had to and be fine. BTW that has happened to me with out that stuff and let me tell you sleeping leaned against a tree in a storm with out the above gear is not fun.

You dont have a lot of clothes. You pack very similar to me minus the wind stuff.

note: I noticed you dont have any tshirts, collared shirts, or neck buffs. It can get really hot in the summer. I would get rid of one of the long sleeve layers and add a t shirt and/or a collared shirt. The neck buffs are nice cause you can get them wet and wrap them around your head, wear as a beanie, protect your neck from the sun ect.

You should have rain gear of some kind. To do otherwise is risky and at the least, miserable. "Walking through it" seems noble and adventurous, but not so much in reality and dieing from hypothermia would really suck!

I don't think much of using my poncho for a ground sheet, as it will get trashed by rocks, dirt, sticks and roots. To me, the whole idea of a groundsheet is to have a cheap replaceable sacraficial surface to take the abuse instead if my sleeping gear. My groundsheet gets UGLY! I use Tyvek or polycryo.

That said, a Golite poncho is just 7oz and costs far less than anything made in Cuben. It has the right features to be used with a backpack and give good coverage. A poncho makes a great CYA shelter and rain gear option for day hikes too.

I like the Frogg Toggs pants idea. Other than that, one of the light 2.5 layer rain pants will work— at greater weight and cost, but with better fit and durability.

I think the only way wind pants pay off is when they are combined with super light running style shorts. Otherwise, you might as well wear zip-off convertibles. If the weather is getting cold and windty enough for wind pants, then rain pants will do. Wind pants are fragile and are exposed to more abuse than windshirts. FYI, you can find unlined runner and warm-up style pants by Nike, Brooks and others in the 6-7oz range. They are a couple ounces heavier than ones by Patagonia, Montane, or Mont Bell, but are much more durable. You can buy them on the charp in most discounters like Ross and Marshall's and they are commonly found in thrift stores, so you won't mind so much when you shred them.

IMHO, windshirts are never a substitute for a poncho or rain shell, but I use one a lot and it is a core part of my layering system. They make a great combo with a poncho too. I have no problem packing both windshirt and rain gear. Packing both a windshirt and abutton down collared shirt doesn't add up for me. Conversely I don't think a rain shell is a good substitute for a windshirt, with breathability being the issue.

I am bringing the two long sleeves because I burn WAY too easily to carry a short sleeve. So not sure what other shirt I should consider…

So the vibe I'm getting is that the montane featherlite pants will NOT be adequate for the JMT but that I should bring some 2.5 layer rain pants instead.

I was thinking the shorts, arcteryx tights and the wind pants would be sufficient for pretty much anything on the JMT, then I use the dedicated rain shell and the windshirt as necessary. Montbell puffy for insulation….

Discuss.

"I was thinking the shorts, arcteryx tights and the wind pants would be sufficient for pretty much anything on the JMT, then I use the dedicated rain shell and the windshirt as necessary. Montbell puffy for insulation…."

That's what I would pretty much take. You might get afternoon showers, or not, there's no guarantee of rain like there would be in CO or NM. If it does rain, it stays pretty warm and the rain doesn't last forever. You could hike thru in what you got or pitch a shelter and take a nap. I'm thinking about a high sierra trip in early Sept and I'll probably take a windshirt and driducks poncho. I really don't see the need for taking rain pants on the JMT during later summer.

Here's the clothes I bring for Sierra hiking…

All clothing carried (warm and rain) weighs 1 lb 7 oz and lives in a supermarket plastic bag, except for the down jacket, which gets stuffed around the bear can. There is no dedicated sleep gear. At night I always strip and clean my entire body then put my clothes back on. My clothes don't get too dirty since I usually jump in a lake with them on once a day.

Clothing worn consists of: cotton dish towel to protect ears and neck, visor, white long sleeve synthetic shirt, synthetic stretch work-out pants, synthetic boxer briefs, synthetic under the ankle socks, Dirty Girl gaiters and running shoes. Also shown are Iniji toe socks, which I bring as backup socks in case I start to develop toe-to-toe blisters; for this trip, they stayed in my pack. If I get hot while hiking, I simply roll up the pants.

Warm clothing carried consists of: fleece hat, Montbell UL Down Sweater and wool sleep socks. I used to bring fleece mittens but now simply pull my hands into my jacket.

Rain gear carried consists of a 3M Porepro jacket and Tyvek pants.

Jeniffer, how much body heat do you produce while hiking? Are you a warm or cold hiker? If you are a very warm hiker, then you probably don't need rain pants. Tights will still keep you pretty warm while wet, as long as you are hiking and producing heat. I use my running tights for hiking up creeks in the winter. The wind pants will keep the wind off and slow down the rain, so I think you would be plenty warm with anything you could encounter in the summer Sierras. But this is coming from somebody who has very little experience in the Sierras.

Jennifer I have never done the Sierras but after a couple days of rain on the CT I changed my approach a bit. Hiking in cold rain gets old fast especially if you get wet and the sun doesn't come out quickly to dry you out. Here are my thoughts on your questions.

1. No its not worth $250 to save 2 oz on a rain jacket.

2. I like rain pants for mountain trips. Imagine this – its 50 degrees, raining and windy, would you like rain pants? I definitely would. I feel like I hike better when my leg muscles aren't cold. In my opinion wind pants are unnecessary if you have rain pants.

3. I like my windshirt. I can wear it when its cool but too warm for a raincoat. You could live without it but its pretty nice.

4. I've only hiked in my insulation layer a couple times. The windshirt is much less warm and much more breathable then a puffy.

If you want to compromise on rain pants you could try a rain skirt. Personally I'd just take one wool shirt. My garage sale wool shirt didn't smell that bad after 3 weeks on the trial (I was much worse).

Hope you have fun.

Yeah the collared shirt would be long sleeve and made of some sort of breathable UPF fabric which should shield you from the sun better than a normal long sleeve shirt. At least that is was I was thinking. "I" use my normal long sleeve shirts as insulating layers and would get way to hot hiking in that in july.

If you think that the wind pants and the layers you mentioned are sufficient, then they are. You will live no matter what the weather on the JMT that time of year. I was suggesting the rain pants because I would bring them. I've hiked in the rain with no shirt in the summer and been fine in the sierras. but I've also been there and it started snowing/raining in the middle of summer.

Also the frog toggs are 10 oz for the suit so the pants are probably 4-5 oz and they are cheap. The 2.5 layer pants are likely heavier and more expensive.