Alcohol Stove Users Only

[Ben H.]

Greg,

I think the base material of the ball of Pt Black is important in that it should not have a large thermal mass. The reaction is very slow to begin with and you need that slow reaction to quickly heat up the Pt Black so that start going at a high enough rate to heat up the thin Pt wire. Depositing the Pt Black directly on the Pt wire might work really well… not sure. It sounds like you have a chemical process that will precipitate Pt Black. Do you believe if you precipitate it in the presence of Pt wire, the precipitate will stick to the wire?

Chris,

Great find! The way I read that patent (having a hard time following the chemistry), it sounds like the first process is to simply form Pt Black powder. Then he mixes the Pt Black powder with corn syrup and dries it out. I wouldn't call that a sintering process. It sounds to me like he is suspending the Pt Black in a sugar matrix and forming that into balls. I would guess the first time you fire up the ball, the sugar would carbonize. It sounds to me like the ball is a matrix of carbon and Pt black. If true, that sounds like a fairly simple process to recreate (if you have the Pt Black). It also means that ball isn't pure Pt black… which would drive down the cost.

[Dan Yeruski]

Christopher, nice find. I googled Richard E. Berthold and was able to find the invention page of a lighter I have. (Lektrolite)

A quote from the invention page:

quote:
The lighter consists of a casing containing an absorbant which is charged with a vaporizable fluid(pure methanol giving excellent results), and a block or body of platinum black, spongy platinum, or the like, is disposed at the outer end of the casing, being suitably supported in position to collect the vapor, means also being provided for creating a current of air that will assist the flow of vapor to the catalytic element. end quote

The Lektrolite lighter in the photo show it having a red portion that contains the platinum black as described in the invention. I'm tempted to take it apart LOL.
The transcript of the invention also gives a wealth of info regarding the welfare of the platinum black and how it is kept away from liquid fuel to preserve it.

[Dan Yeruski]

Based on what I read via the link Christopher gave I decided to insert a catalytic heater into the center of a StarLyte burner to see if it will assist in a more complete burning of fuel. Fuel will be put into the burner around the heater and then ignited. The flames will heat the grey colored catalytic screen being held in heater. Once it becomes red hot it should be doing a scientific reaction with the vapors:-) Now all I have to do is figure out if it is really helpful. I can only assume it will be ;-)

I'll fire it up tomorrow and take a photo or two:

[Dan Yeruski]

One heater is too low power. I blew the StarLyte out and the heater continues to burn untill snuffed out or all fuel is consumed. Because of the heat being generated it causes the burner to evaporate it's fuel supply without being burned. Total inefficiency….bummer Back to the drawing board.

[Gregory Stein]

Thank you for the update,

I'm still fighting with the lab :(
No news yet. Hope this Friday will do the job.

[Christopher *]

Thanks for the update Dan.

So the "sciency" reaction = big fat nothing, huh? I thought you were on to something. At least it looks cool, in a Dr. Who kinda way.

Out of curiosity, do you think the "low power" is a result of too little catalytic reagent, too little fuel or too little oxygen to support combustion? Just curious what your intuition tells you.

Cheers

[Dan Yeruski]

I found this today while researching butanol:

I tried WG, parafin, kero, benzene, some fairly pure octane, acetone, etc… lots of mixes with plain old petrocarbons. All have a similar problem. If you add more than about 1-3% of these, they all burn sooty. That isn't enough to boost fuel heat. Even ispropinol does about the same, but I have never gotten it to burn efficiently even though there are some commercial stoves out there. After the alcohol is burned off you simply burn the carbon/hydrogen. This is the same with all longer chained alcohols and simplistic petrochemicals(butane, propane, etc.) Follow? Note that is is NOT really what is happening, but fairly well approximats alcohol's burning.

I think I would research a platinum catalyst, similar to the platinim coated meshes found in labs. This is expensive as hell, though. But this would lower the energy needed for complete combustion…sililar to those found on kerosene heaters. (Note that the coatings on that stuff is extreamly thin, 2-3 molecules thick electroplate. Even touching them will damage the coating…never try to clean them mechanically.) Once the catalyst gets hot enough, it will produce good heat. But, if you are going to use a catalyst, why bother with alcohol? Even WG has much higher heat…

[Dan Yeruski]

Christopher, didn't see your post, my bad :-(

The single heater in the center of the StarLyte burner had too much fuel rising up around it instead of just coming up through the wick attached to it's underside. These little heaters have some great potential. They are made of stainless steel and the surface that is plated with platinum is large. In my previous post there is a quote saying not to touch the plated portion etc. That quote came from BPL thread that is related to burning Butanol.

We need more info to come forth from the one who I quoted James Marco in this thread:

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=58858&startat=20

There will be more info to come on adding platinum gauze to a "coil" type stove. I had a vision this morning while lying in bed after a good nights rest LOL. I could see a coil with a preheat resevior vaporising the Butanol and the vapor being pressurized and flowing through the coil into platinized gauze where it is being acted upon in a scientific way:-) as it heats up it is then introduced to the Platinum Black Ball where the vapors ignite in a radical fashion and the stove takes off like a rocket out of Hades.

[James Marco]

Zelph,
Basically, I didn't expect to see anything realy great with alcohol. It doesn't really matter what fuel you use, but alky does not produce enough to make it worth while. Methanol is simply a a carbon, surrounded by 3 hydrogen atoms and a hydroxyl group. The hydroxyl group is partially "cumbusted" already, if you want to look at it like that. Methane is MUCH more fuel efficient per moler weight. Alcohol is partially used. The big advantage is the reduction in evaporation pressure. At the carrying temperature we are interested in as campers, it is liquid.

Trouble is, methane and ilk are not easily transported without a rather heavy container. The light gasses require pressure to transport efficiently. As campers, we do not have the luxury of presurizing gasses and transporting them without storing the gas in the traditional heavy metal container.

Therfore, we need a lighter container. But, no matter what, a container for carrying a liquid fuel, not as volotile as, say, methane, will ALWAYS be lighter than one required to hold pressure.

By the same token, if we use a liquid fuel, such as WG, it need to be vaporized before burning to eliminate the soot, ie, burn completely, ergo high efficiency.

My thought by using a catalyst, is to reduce the energy needed to initiate the burning of a fuel. Not necessarily to start the combustion, as with the lighters.
But, a well tuned catalyst should let WG burn cleanly with no presurization needed to force through a jet.

Using a good catalytic stove, I am guessing that the weight should be no more than 1.5-2oz. The catalyst will be a thicker mesh, I believe. And, I also believe it will burn WG, Kero, etc. BUT, additives may kill it. Probably not auto gas, Diesel, or avation fuels.

At that point, the combustion (stove & fuel) combination will be nearly 100% user dependent. As it sits, most WG stoves are about 50% efficient. If this can be boosted to 70-80%, AND, the stove weight reduced from about a pound to 2oz, this would be far better than a presurized container for gases.

As it sits, canisters are only about 10% better than alcohol for fuels, because of the presurized can. WG/Butane are within 3-4% of eachother for heat value. But, allowing soot wasts a lot of heat value. A clean burning and light weight stove is needed to burn WG. As it sits, The SVEA comes closest with about a 65-75% efficiency. But paying a pound in weight for the little stove is painfull to most. A pound of stove is rediculous when you consider a one or two night trip. Depending on your usage, a week is about break even, now. I would much prefer to see a 2oz stove at 70% efficiency letting me get rid of the bloody SVEA. Then, we can work on a better fuel.

[Gregory Stein]

Guys, I saw this thread has been revived, so just a quick notice that we are not giving up!

I'm trying to get the platinum black stick to the wire.

Photos from Wednesday this week:

Tiny piece of my depleting platinum stock. As you see, I'm dealing with really small quantity of that expensive reagent. Ultra precise lab scales:

Boiling Aqua Regia dissolving platinum. Well, it took 2 hours to dissolve that small piece! I was amazed. During this process NO () and other toxic gases are produced (see yellowish vapors), so you should do it outdoors or in lab.

Next week I'll update with my progress. On Monday I plan to make another effort of making Pt black cover ball of Pt wire. Here is what I'll try to do: I'll take 3 inches of Pt. wire. I'll roll 2 inches of it into ball and leave 3/4 inch on one end and 1/4 inch on another end. Then, I'll cover both ends with wax or paraffin so it covers all the 3/4 and 1/4 length. The idea behind that is that only the ball of wire is exposed to solution since vax/paraffin is hydrophobic. I'll use some acetone/alcohol for cleaning the wire to ensure that fat retomains/dust will not interfere with Pt sediment. I thought to put this wire with waxed ends and the ball into flask, add some solution of sodium sulphite and slowly but surely add solution of chloroplatinic acid.

This project is not as easy as I thought. Don't know how much platinum I'll have for additional experiments. Already looked for options to buy it. However at $70 for a gram it's quite expensive. The good is that you need very very small portion of Pt for platinum black catalyst.

I hope I'll manage to make something useful.

[DAN-Y/FANCEE FEEST]

Alright you guys, you had enough time to purrrfect a new stove using the info provided. What you got?

I want to stir your creative thinking by showing you 2 videos.

[Anonymous]

Hmmm, wrapped copper coil suspended in a Al container, with some carbon felt on bottom and sides, with a carbon air filter placed on top, for heat production?

Might try this on my very ventilated sun porch, which has a concrete floor and a wood stove in it.  Put the container in the (large, house) wood stove (with glass window) for safety and see how long it stays hot and how hot it gets?

The carbon air filter on top will trap some of the VOC’s and slow down the evaporation a little.  Ideal container would be wider at the bottom and narrower at the top.

If this works well, could be used as a heater for my insulated tent.

[DAN-Y/FANCEE FEEST]

If this works well, could be used as a heater for my insulated tent.

Glad you stopped by. I bumped this thread just for you :-)

[Anonymous]

Had a feeling it might have been for mine eyes.  Thank you Dan.

I’m waiting on some ordered carbon air filter material.  Soon after, experimentation will commence. I feel like of late, I have too many irons in the fire.

[DAN-Y/FANCEE FEEST]

Where are the engineers when you need them :-)

Tell us what is being given off other than heat while we watch these copper pieces glow. Any harmful products?

Justin, you got your hands full, take a break, take a short section hike, take your significant other with you on your winter outings to warm your tent 

[Stormin]

For a thread to “Alcohol Stove Users Only” and not a alcohol stove worth a mention?

 

[Anonymous]

Like a lot of lasses, she doesn’t like winter backpacking or camping too much–unless I lug the true hot tent set up and keep it toasty.  And even then, it can’t be too cold to start off.  Polar vortex?  No way Jose.

[DAN-Y/FANCEE FEEST]

For a thread to “Alcohol Stove Users Only” and not a alcohol stove worth a mention?

2 of mine were mentioned………….pooh pooh on you!!!

 

[Stormin]

I said “worth” a mention.

[Kevin B]

From the stormin stove website:

”

I cannot offer this System for sale to the USA in the alcohol setup pictured, adaptations will be made to satisfy US patent laws. Modifications as with my aluminium cones, will be adopted to suit these needs. Details will be explained upon enquiry.

All cones are supplied with a Stormin Stove burner.   Stormin Simmer rings also function with the cones.”

So, @stormin,  why can’t you sell the alcohol stove version in the USA?  Too close to which patent? Caldera cone? Or the Starlyte series (Made by Dan Y. I believe), it seems cloned from?

[Kevin B]

Wow, the stormin stoves also have an absorbing ‘wick’ (carbon felt, I assume) feature just like the spillproof Starlyte series!

So which design came first?

Is Stormin just Zelph’s European tax-dodge corporation?  BPL needs answers!!

“My stoves are 32mm high x 50mm diameter, making for a more efficient burn with less disruption to the flame pattern from air intakes.  Completely spill-proof due to the super absorption of the wick material” From :  http://www.storminstovesystems.co.uk/stormin-stove/

Edit: Bias alert. I’ve owned an original Starlyte since 2011, Dan later sent me the green cap.

[Stormin]

Sorry Kevin, no carbon felt in my stoves the material is unobtanium in the U S. I can sell my burners in the US no problem, they are unique and my own design.😎

[Bob Moulder]

These are alcohol stoves, for cryin’ out loud… are there any truly novel features to emerge in the last 100 years??   :^/

Design patents, maybe, but utility patents? Seriously in doubt.

 

[Ben H.]

Where are the engineers when you need them :-)

Tell us what is being given off other than heat while we watch these copper pieces glow. Any harmful products?….

Well I’m not a chemical engineer, but this link gives a pretty good description of what people believe the chemistry is:

https://science.wonderhowto.com/how-to/make-copper-glow-red-hot-with-acetone-0148227/

Acetone reacts with Copper Oxide to form Ethanal (Acetaldehyde) and Carbon Dioxide and Water.

Ethanal (not Ethanol) is fairly innocuous though it has been implicated in hangovers.  This reaction should be fairly safe though the link does mention some references indicating toxic gases ketene and methane as by products.  Sounds like the standard warning… this shouldn’t kill you, but always do chemical reactions in a well ventilated area and don’t sue us if things go south.

 

[DAN-Y/FANCEE FEEST]

This heater was fun to make….sweetness 

 

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