Question on XC ski boot insulation

It is difficult to answer completely from a general question. There are all sorts of different nordic ski boots.

On one extreme, some people ski in double boots. They are heavy, but they are good for steep downhill turning. When you get to camp, you pull the inner boots out away from the outer shell and wear the inner boots in camp.

On the other extreme, there are nordic racing boots. They don't turn well, but they are very lightweight and uninsulated. They are semi-OK in a groomed track.

For lots of us in the middle, we wear boots with a 3-pin binding. These provide _some_ of the downhill turning control and _some_ thin insulation. I wear mine in camp. I always wear high-top OR gaiters, and these provide a bit of extra thermal protection. Some people stick their spare gloves down into the gaiters. That means extra insulation to the foot, plus it keeps your spare gloves warmer.

–B.G.–

Thanks Bob!

With the snowshoes, I just wore normal insulated boots and had no problem once I took off the snowshoes. What little I had seen of the XC boots resembled the racing boots, I think, thus my wondering what people did in camp.

I just went through the Help with ski boots thread too, which was a bit overwhelming. Time for me to do more research on the 3-pin setups, it looks like.

"Time for me to do more research on the 3-pin setups, it looks like."

You kind of have to decide on which end of the skier spectrum you will be. Some people are (downhill) skiers at heart, so they get the heavier XC rig. The heavy 3-pin boots and bindings are the middle road, meaning that you can still ski some steep hills, and you can ski some miles of trails. The lighter boots and bindings are fine for groomed tracks, but you would not want to get them on steep slopes.

So, are you basically a downhill skier, a hiker, or a runner?

–B.G.–

Well, for now I would be restricting the high-speed downhill stuff to the resorts. I think my answer to your question would be "hiker"; but staying clear of steep slopes. Ideally I'd like something that plays nice with existing tracks, but that I can also use on non-groomed trails.

Hi Jeremy,
both boots from Alpina (BC 2250 and Traverse) have inner bootie made of Thinsulate
insulation and over that they have thick neoprene overshoe. I've used Traverse few times now and they've been warm enough. After few hours of use I noted moisture build up on innerside of neoprene overshoe but Thinsulate bootie was somewhat dry and still warm. I think wearing VB socks or turkey bags would add even more warmth and prevent moisture build up.

Here's the link to the two boots mentioned:

http://sunnysideofthealps.blogspot.com/2013/01/alpina-bc-2250-vstraverse-nordic.html

Regards,

I get cold hands and feet easy.

I find my thermo moldable intuition foam liner at boots warm to about 0F with very thin ski socks when moving no matter how sweaty/wet my feet are since the foam doesn't absorb moisture. The time I camped in them at that temp my feet got cold but not unmanageably so…I will bring down booties and thick socks next time.

I also have a three pin setup with some older soft plastic boots with non thermo liners…I get cold feet in those pretty easily in the 20's even with thicker socks (the are a roomier fit and pretty packed out).

Don't buy into the three pin thing for use in the mountains…modern AT gear (ie dynafit bindings) is the way to go if you aren't already an expert telemarker and don't want to spend years in a ski area practicing technique and still be hindered by heavier less efficient gear. It makes traverses that would have been the domain of experts possible for everyone.

We have both. I spent last saturday on three pin gear skiing out a long mostly flat trail along a burbling creek ( http://www.hillmap.com/m/ag1zfmhpbGxtYXAtaGRychALEghTYXZlZE1hcBiM7TwM blodget canyond) and sunday on at gear and I have no doubt that at gear is the way to go for covering ground in conditions…we were still crashing to stop before we went off trail or into the creek on things no hiker would even call a hill. There wasn't enough cover to ski off trail and the trail was a packed trough through brush and crust not wide enough to tele turn and our setups just didn't have the power or grab to push out into the crust in a snow plow.

Even in tour mode our at boots+dynafit bidngins are much easier to push into a wide snowplow in crusty or heavy conditions. Not as pretty as a tele turn but safer and more practical especially with a pack.

Three pin gear IS unbelievably fun on mellow open slopes in good snow which is why we keep those setups around.

"Three pin gear IS unbelievably fun on mellow open slopes in good snow which is why we keep those setups around."

The fun is in starting with a steep slope and converting it into a mellow slope.

If you get more insulation on your arms and legs, you ought to be able to get your warm torso blood pumped out all the way to your hands and feet and still be warm.

–B.G.–

I stopped by a few places today check out boots in person, and the insulation on boots like those Alpinas felt more much more adequate than I remember! I also have the cold hands/feet issue, but my current alpine boots work fairly well in that regard. Those boots are about 5.8 kg/pair. It looks like randonee and telemark boots would be around 3-4 kg/pair, at which weight I’d lean somewhat towards the randonee options.

It looks like a basic nordic setup (NNN boots, bindings, skis) can be easily obtained for under $500, and wouldn’t take up too much space. That’s something I can get started with (rent or buy) fairly easily, assuming the terrain permits.

Related question: how well would something like the Rossignol BC70s have worked on that recent BPL Dewey Point trip?

To avoid overloading on gear, I’d prefer to keep my setup fairly minimal; one idea I head was to add Marker Barons to a Prophet 90 or 98 for a one-ski quiver, and possibly supplement with a basic NNN setup for longer touring trips. It’s a bit heavier than a dynafit setup, but hopefully more robust for the groomed slopes. Thoughts?

Among the backcountry skiers whom I've skied with over the last 35 years in California, virtually nobody uses NNN boots and bindings. In fact, I've seen some trip leaders who would almost forbid anybody from using that stuff, at least on the routes that we do. We see maybe 25% who use heavy boots with inners, and the other 75% of us use medium boots with conventional 3-pin bindings.

OTOH, the route out to Dewey Point isn't tough at all. The first mile is on an unplowed road, so it is trivial. The next two miles are easy. Only when you get out around the last trail junction does it get a tiny bit tricky. But I've seen nordic racers out there with racing gear.

–B.G.–

I saw an altitude profile of the route, and it looked like there was a bit of a steep descent towards the end, which I was concerned about. (I.e. similar to the situation Ryan described, with no good turning/stopping options.)

Initially I'd probably be staying clear of the routes you guys do; I'd want to get avy certified before venturing places with good downhill potential. So, my current goal is largely to find a good snowshoe alternative.

I think the ski boot warmth will be a factor if you camp in the middle of the winter.

Most of the long tours that we do are out around April-May when the corn snow shapes up, so the insulation is not quite as important. On the other hand, the long tours often have us camping up pretty high, like 9000-11,000 feet.

So, ski boot warmth is not an issue while you are moving. In camp, in the evening, ski boot warmth starts to become an issue. Then for overnight you have to keep your boots warm. You take your sleeping bag stuff sack and turn it inside-out, put your boots in there, and put that down in the foot of the sleeping bag when you are in it. Then in the morning, the boots will be good for at least the first hour that you are breaking camp. Then you are moving again.

There are two trails that go to Dewey Point. One goes up over the hill, and one goes out through the meadows. The latter is usable by skiers with a few days of experience. The hill trail is tougher. Where the two trails intersect near Dewey Point is where the tricky part is.

–B.G.–

Jeremy

"Those boots are about 5.8 kg/pair."

My pair of Alpina Traverse boot is approx. 1,9kg in size 45EU.
A pair of nordic BC skis (190cm long full steel edge) is approx. 1,9kg
add to that approx. 0,5kg for a pair of Manual NNN bindings and you
can sum up the weight per pair per foot.

"It looks like a basic nordic setup (NNN boots, bindings, skis) can be easily obtained for under $500, and wouldn't take up too much space"

With a bit of luck on sales I got the above setup for ~ 340$ which is same as
a pair of everage AT boot would cost.

"I've been thinking of swapping from snowshoes to skis for winter trips" That's the same reason I bite the bullet and bought basic nordic setup. To see if I like it or not and to give me something new to play with when snow comes. To be fair I think the above 340 bucks were well invested:)

"So, my current goal is largely to find a good snowshoe alternative"
I think you can't go wrong here.

Exactly what Bob said:"The fun is in starting with a steep slope and converting it into a mellow slope".

The first day I went out with the skis the snow was icy crust and I was skiding all
places, second day I went out I decided to do some climbing and climbed some steep crusty slopes with them. There wasn't much skiing on that day only to get down back
in one piece, but I saw their limits and once at more flat ground skiing seemed to
be fairly easy. I am novice from this year and starting to like it after only few skiing hours:)

If I would go out for and overnight I would do the same as Bob said or put some warm
water bottles inside each boot to dry.

Regards,

Jeremy

"Those boots are about 5.8 kg/pair."

My pair of Alpina Traverse boot is approx. 1,9kg in size 45EU.
A pair of nordic BC skis (190cm long full steel edge) is approx. 1,9kg
add to that approx. 0,5kg for a pair of Manual NNN bindings and you
can sum up the weight per pair per foot.

"It looks like a basic nordic setup (NNN boots, bindings, skis) can be easily obtained for under $500, and wouldn't take up too much space"

With a bit of luck on sales I got the above setup for ~ 340$ which is same as
a pair of everage AT boot would cost.

"I've been thinking of swapping from snowshoes to skis for winter trips" That's the same reason I bite the bullet and bought basic nordic setup. To see if I like it or not and to give me something new to play with when snow comes. To be fair I think the above 340 bucks were well invested:)

"So, my current goal is largely to find a good snowshoe alternative" I think you can't go wrong here.

Exactly what Bob said:"The fun is in starting with a steep slope and converting it into a mellow slope".

The first day I went out with the skis the snow was icy crust and I was skiding all
places, second day I went out I decided to do some climbing and climbed some steep crusty slopes with them. There wasn't much skiing on that day only to get down back
in one piece, but I saw their limits and once at more flat ground skiing seemed to
be fairly easy. I am novice from this year and starting to like it after only few skiing hours:)

If I would go out for and overnight I would do the same as Bob said or put some warm
water bottles inside each boot to dry.

Regards,