123mountain.com CAUTION

[Jeremy and Angela]

I am tempted to agree with Bob on this; I have not heard anything good about the BBB in terms of their effectiveness (or even their relevance these days). One other agency not mentioned is the FTC; I'd suggest filing a complaint with them as well.

In terms of your case, I assume you have a copy of the order confirmation email which specifies the "Golden Dry" rope. A photo of the product received, with a clear check on the non-Golden Dry option will also be needed, and you're good to go. Don't worry about any SKUs on it, but you might want to take screenshots of their website in case they list the same SKUs for both products.

Now, here's my entirely un-vetted, un-reviewed, and potentially dangerous advice:
0. Assemble the aforementioned documentation (confirmation email, photo of product received, any other correspondence).

1. Notify the seller you cannot accept the product shipped because it does not conform to the description in the order confirmation email, and that you still expect them to ship the correct product within N days.

2. Notify the seller that you will store the originally shipped product for X days so that they may make arrangements to retrieve it. (If they provide a pre-paid shipping label or are willing to accept COD, that should be sufficient.)

3. Place the first rope in your closet, someplace safe, and ignore it until they come get it, pay for its shipping, or X days pass.

4. If they fail to ship the proper product after N days, have your credit card company reverse the charge.

5. Since the product is a climbing rope, consider letting someone you dislike use the rope the first few times. (You know, in case the merchant decided to accidentally leave it near battery acid or something.)

[M B]

Not sure why some people seem frightened of having a collections letter sent.
Especially a fake one.

I wouldnt even deal with the company anymore. I would chargeback the credit card, and send them a certified letter stating they have 30 days to send shipping and handling costs to recieve their erroneous rope back. After 30 days it will be disposed of.

Their choice is to be out shipping costs for a rope, or be out a rope and shipping costs for a rope.

Or you could try returning under a return authorizations,but sounds like you would lose the rope, and likely not recieve a refund either…..

[Stephen M]

Not sure how true this is but I recall reading somewhere that if you return a rope the company will destroy it for safety reasons.

[Jeremy and Angela]

Or you could try returning under a return authorizations,but sounds like you would lose the rope, and likely not recieve a refund either…..

I'm pretty sure that even if you got a refund, they'd deduct shipping costs. With a rep like they have I wouldn't give in; this sort of thing is probably a significant source of profit for them.

You may wish to refer to the commercial code in your state, but there is likely another option as well: In addition to notifying them that you are cancelling the order due to their breach of the sales contract, purchase the proper rope from a reputable retailer and send 123mountain a bill for any difference in price. (I think you see where this is going, yes?)

[Chad B]

Dang Brian, that is seriously messed up. Sorry that happened to you but thank you for alerting the community.

[Brian Huang]

Thank you all again for your suggestions and support. After my initial frustration, I really do find his email responses pretty hilarious. It's like spelling out 1+1=2 to a deranged, stubborn old French guy who insists otherwise. Why do I say French? It's because I found this on scambook.com:

123Mountain Complaint 156984 for $895.00
cactusedcactused SBID #3d045b3c5a Posted 11/10/2012
The owner of this shop is Olivier Goumas. Sofia Goumas must be his wife or a relative. This French guy (hence the poor English) is a crook. He had trouble with law in France, in Tignes, with a ski shop called TN'T aka "Tignes And Temptation", skis never sent and so on. Then he tried his luck with a website called mountainblack.com, using same methods but pretending to be in UK. People never receive what they order or articles are missing. And the same cancellation fee… Feel sorry for you Francesco. Hope he'll face some legal action.

The more I googled 123Mountain, the more intrigued I became. Just read the complaints on BBB, Resellerratings, Scambook, and Yelp, they're really interesting! I do it on my spare time, like watching Youtube or LiveLeaks. Anyway, if you guestimate the total money scammed from all complaints, it seems to add to tens of thousands (if not hundred of thousands!) of dollars. According to BBB, 123mountain received 82 complaints in the last 3 years. Campsaver.com, a much much larger outfitter, received 5 complaints in the last 3 years. Not only does 123mountain receive astronomically more complaints, the description of each is pretty horrible stuff. They operate on principles completely opposite of American values. Look, even if they are a small retailer (and we all support them) and even if they do deliver on most items as a normal merchant should, they still nevertheless occasionally cheat consumers of money (remember, we're talking tens of thousands of dollars). My conclusion: they really need to be shut down and face charges either here in America or back in France (if the scambook.com reviewer is telling the truth).

I will file a complaint with the Consumer Protection department on the Colorado AG's website (thanks to those for the suggestion). Hopefully, it will have an impact. But, I'm also an out-of-state consumer. If anybody from Colorado/Denver is reading this and you want to cleanse your state of scammers and do the entire outdoor community a huge favor, I would love to work with you. With a local contact, we might have more of chance to bring them to justice!!! Or at the very least put them on the AG's radar so they drastically change their business habits.

[Linda Alvarez]

Brian, WOW. I couldn't take my eyes off that email exchange, it was like watching a train wreck. I manage customer service/support for my company and every single thing about that made me wince. That should be in a Hall of Shame somewhere. Thank you for warning everyone away from this company.

–Linda

[Roger Caffin]

In cases like this, you go to your credit card company and demand a refund, and you go to your local court house or BBB or Dept of Fair Trading or whatever government department is appropriate. Hand the problem over to the proper authorities – although you may need to push them. Do not attempt any smart tricks yourself.

Oh yes – keep full documentation of course! ALL records.

Cheers

[Jeremy and Angela]

Oh but Roger, we haven't even begun to get started; I had forgotten all about the Postal Inspector side of things! (Yes, failure to deliver would count as mail fraud.) I suggest a look at the FTC's resources regarding the Mail or Telephone Order Merchandise Rule (16 CFR Part 435). While this is probably much more applicable to Drew's case, a documented pattern of behavior would probably raise a bit of interest.

While state consumer protection laws are probably also in play, the U.C.C. provides standardized rules for transactions that have been adopted almost nationwide (Lousiana is a partial exception). While demanding a chargeback is a good idea, it's also important to quickly notify the seller that the goods don't match what was ordered and that you are rejecting the merchandise. (This is to prevent being in the position of having accepted the merchandise and then trying to ask for a refund, which is a weaker position.)

Note: Both MB and I suggested storing the rope they shipped. This is also based on the UCC. What neither of us explicitly stated was that when you reject the shipment, the rope technically still belongs to the seller, and you are thus holding it for them. (I.e. you shouldn't use it.) However, you are entitled to charge a reasonable fee for the storage, and if they fail to make reasonable (i.e. they pay) arrangements for its return, you would be able to sell the rope after a reasonable time, deduct the costs of the sale including commission, shipping, storage, etc, and finally mail them a check for what's left over.

[Brian Huang]

JB – Yeah, I'll probably give them a LAST email stating that 1) I received an item that I didn't order, 2) I'll put the item in storage and they can retrieve it within 30 day (pay shipping with insurance and tracking or COD), 3) I didn't receive the item I ordered, and 4) I'll be issuing a charge back on my credit card.

[Jeremy and Angela]

One last bit… your note should clearly describe the reason the item didn't match what was ordered, and you may need to allow them a reasonable chance to ship the correct goods.* (Ask your credit card company about this, if you don't have a lawyer on hand.)

*Chances are they'll tell you to screw off, in which case you should then be free to buy elsewhere.

[Jonathan Shefftz]

Although the other suggested approaches might work in other contexts, I highly doubt these various agencies will be very invested in such a relatively small financial dispute over such an arcane distinction.
(Yes, I own the same rope, and it's even already packed for my flight on Sunday, but although you and I might appreciate the oddity of Beal even bothering to produce a non-coated version of a rope intended for glacier travel, that might seem like quibbling to most folks.)

Instead, try contacting Beal's U.S. distributor, Liberty Mountain.

This 123Mountain website is probably able to keep perpetrating such frauds (and dominating Google search results just by copying the listings for entire product lines, even though 123 has almost nothing in inventory, and lists products that aren't available *anywhere* on the *entire continent*) only because distributors are somehow willing to occasionally fulfill these orders.
So if they know what's going on, maybe this can be cut off at the roots, since the product lines also take a reputation hit when 123 first charges a customer, then says delivery will take weeks or even months, yet demands a cancellation fee.

(The irony is that also packed for my flight Sunday is a product I bought from 123 off eBay back in Feb 2011 — the NOS product's detailed description was incorrect, but somewhat comparable to the current situation, in that a seller unfamiliar with the product wouldn't understand the distinction. I proposed a partial refund. Even though I was in the right, I half-expected pretty much any seller to tell me to get lost, since the price had been so trivially low anyway, as nobody else bid. But 123 promptly and politely complied — I wonder if 123's ~one-yr period on eBay was just a ploy to obtain nearly perfect eBay feedback to open accounts with distributors?)

[Jennifer Mitol]

I can't stop reading that email exchange. I'm really sorry Brian that this is happening, but on some level it's entertaining as hell!

[Piney]

Here is my email exchange with them:

Customer Support to Management:

"Your order # 100011165 is Processing

Order Comments: Customer called regarding shipping of this package, which he states was shipped in wrong flat rate box. He accepted package, paid the difference in shipping and would like a refund for the $7.95 additional shipping he paid. I offered an upgrade in shipping for next order, but customer does not want this option. Can you please respond via email?

If you have any questions, please feel free to contact us at [email protected] or by phone at 303-984-4649

Thank you again, 123Mountain"

Managment:

"Your order # 100011165 is Processing

Order Comments: Dear Customer, We are sorry that the USPS billed you for an error we may have made in postage. It is our understanding with USPS that packages with insufficient funds should be returned to us for additional postage. Had you refused to pay the additional postage, the package would have been returned to us to provide the additional postage. It is most likely we shipped your package in a flat rate box, and your merchandise could not have weighed more than one pound, therefore it seems likely that USPS may have incorrectly charged you for that additional postage. We are sorry we are unable to control the USPS's inconsistencies. The $7.95 you paid is also our standard economy shipping fee, which is why we are offering you a shipping upgrade on this and a future order. Shipping your order United Parcel Service would avoid any future problems with the USPS. Shipping Management

If you have any questions, please feel free to contact us at [email protected] or by phone at 303-984-4649

Thank you again, 123Mountain"

Me:

"Dear management,

This response is total BS and has made a bad situation worse. Your shipping
department packed a 1 pound item in a MEDIUM FLAT RATE box but printed a label for only 1 pound of postage. My local post office caught the mistake and charged me the difference for the MEDIUM FLAT RATE. The difference I paid was $6.81. See for yourself in this link, I took a picture of the label:

http://www.datazap.net/sites/3104/123mountain.JPG

Please stop wasting my time and refund the $6.81 I paid due to your shipping department's screwup, or I will be forced to dispute the entire amount with my credit card company."

Management:

"Hello ,

Thank you for choosing 123Mountain for all of your outdoor needs.

As you can see here :

https://www.usps.com/ship/service-chart.htm

regardless the box used is the same price .

your item weight 6 oz, with the box your package was under 1 pound and we have pay for one pounf ( minimum charge)

with this information I subject you contact your post office for a refund.

If you have any additional questions or concerns do not hesitate to contact us either by replying to this email or by dialing (303) 984-4649.

Thank you, 123Mountain"

No, I wasn't very nice – that was my attempt at playing hardball. Also, as I recall I was unable to recover anything from my card company as the card used was a paypal debit card. And I never received my spoon, any explanation for their failure to ship the spoon, or refund for the spoon.

If the person I was corresponding with is the owner of 123Mountain as suggested, I think the guy must get off on these sort of exchanges. Otherwise why spend the time to come up with ridiculous excuses and write long emails to save your company $7, knowing you are losing a customer??

[Jennifer Mitol]

Um, call me crazy, but it was my understanding that the whole point of a flat rate box from USPS is that "if it fits, it ships," regardless of the weight.

If you can cram it in the box, it's a FLAT RATE to ship it. Thus the FLAT RATE box.

What am I missing???

[James Klein]

It sounds like 123mountain paid for standard shipping but shipped using a priority box and USPS wanted the difference.

One time I reused a priority box but planned to ship parcel post. When I got to the post office they required me to ship it priority based soley on the box labeling. I imagine this is how they recoupe box costs and also that during package handling they are trying to limit confusion.

[Bill Law]

I'm a bit confused about what went down, also.

My guess is that they charged the customer $7.95 shipping.

They put it in a flat rate box, but printed a shipping label for the lower by-weight shipping. I guess you aren't supposed to use the flat rate box except for flat rate shipping, but one can slap any old shipping label on it.

The post office then asked for, and got, the difference from the customer.

So the customer paid for shipping twice (approximately). All because the company used the wrong box.

[Piney]

The exchange is confusing because the initial message from customer support to management is incorrectly worded, but James & Bill nailed it. 123Mountain charged me $7.95 for shipping, then paid $5.54 to USPS based on weight. But they tucked the item into a medium flat rate box which costs $12.35 at counter rate. So I had to pay the local post office another $6.81 in order to receive the package.

My local post office is a nightmare, always weighing incoming packages and charging for small differences in weight. I've paid up to $50 a month in postage due and then have to try and recover that money from the merchants or sellers. I wouldn't have given it a second thought if 123Mountain had just done the right thing and refunded the postage due when I asked. Instead he made up a bunch of excuses, even after being confronted with a picture of the label (paste the URL I posted into your browser to see the label.)

[Marla]

Another victim here…

I ordered 2 pairs of my favourite shoes, that weren't available anywhere else. I made a bank transfer for $320 and never received the shoes. For refund by bank wire they say they need to pay $140, which leaves $180 for me.
Normal communication about the deliverance is not possible.
It seems like I have to get over this and forget about it.

I was not aware of this thread, otherwise I would have never tried it in the first place.

Marla

[Jeremy and Angela]

Reviving this thread, because over the past few months there seems to have finally been some critical mass achieved in dealing with this problem.  The thread over on MountainProject has been a bit active, not to mention entertaining.

Even more promising than that is the article that just appeared on OutsideOnline about the saga.  I particularly like the mention: “Sources told Outside that the consumer fraud division of the Colorado Attorney General’s Office opened an investigation at the start of this year with a list of 200 potential witnesses.”

For any here who were taken advantage of, it might be good to assemble documentation and see if you can support the effort.

 

[Jennifer Mitol]

And look what just came out in Outside Magazine….

Outside eviscerates 123mountain

[George F]

Interesting reading. Looking at reviews for 123Mountain has them listed as a 1 star ripoff  almost everywhere but strangely enough at review centre  they manage an impressive 4.3 out of 5 stars. I wonder who wrote those?

[Nick Gatel]

I only buy from companies I know. I usually pay with a Discover Card, although I might use PayPal with companies I have done business with before, and Discover as the payment source.

I use my Discover Card for just about every thing I buy, including groceries, and when possible even bills. I even pay for food at fast food places now with the card, as most no longer have a minimum credit card purchase. I don’t normally buy gas with a credit card, because they usually charge an extra 10 cents per gallon so I use the oil company’s credit card to get the cash price. I pay the Discover bill entirely each month. I get over $1,000 back each year from the Discover cash back program. If your credit limit is high enough you can even buy a car or camper with a Discover card, I’ve done that too. My cash back bonuses will decline as I am no longer traveling for business and am retired.

When and if something kinky happens with a company I immediately have Discover cancel the payment – nip it in the bud as early as possible. If a company doesn’t do what they promised or back orders something they inferred was in stock, I am done with them.

[Eric Blanche]

I am surprised with having a storefront or two that they have not been dealt with “accordingly.” Although after reading the recent article posted, it seems they have also been pulling this funny business at the retail locations as well. I hope they get what they have coming to them…

[Justin Baker]

Outside Magazine just put up a huge article on this company. Holy crap these people are such scumbags.

http://www.outsideonline.com/2051821/123-mountain-infuriating-gear-retailer

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