Jan 8, 2013 at 8:59 am #1297780
@richard295Locale: San Francisco Bay Area
Why was the forum thread, that Babak Sakaki started on the entitled subject, deleted yesterday evening?Jan 8, 2013 at 10:02 pm #1942076
I deleted the thread without an explanation because I did not have an explanation to give – yet, and I needed some time to do some homework.
I do not know all of the facts behind the posting of the details about the jacket at this time, but I do know this: that no, while Patagonia isn't Apple, and no, this may technically not violate anything legal for Babak to post this info, it *may* violate what we consider to be reasonable standards of ethics that I adhere to for BPL – publishing potentially proprietary information from a company that does not desire that information to be released. I have been in contact with Patagonia and they indicated to me that this information not only was not intended to be released, but the information that was published was inaccurate as well.
Journalists love scoops. And while it's ethically acceptable in the news industry to squeeze, buy, barter, or bribe confidential information from our politicians, corporate insiders, and other keepers of controversial news (and readers *love* and *demand* it), it's not always an ethical standard that's good for everyone involved. I'm not suggesting that Babak unethically gained the information, or published it with the intention of disclosing proprietary information. That burden of unethical disclosure should fall on his sources, since this information did indeed to appear embargoed by Patagonia.
That this involved a Patagonia product is irrelevant. I've been in similar types of situations with products from other companies as well, including the very smallest of our cottage industry manufacturers, and I will honor their requests as much as I will honor one from a large company.
Please keep in mind that for every time I've taken down a forum thread or censored it when it has come to product disclosure issues, Roger and I have rejected several dozen requests from manufacturers. These things are very carefully evaluated and we use the delete button with extreme reservation.
I've introduced Babak to a contact at Patagonia and hopefully they can resolve any issues behind the scenes and Babak can circle around and let us know how it went. If all goes well and they foster a nice relationship then maybe we can hear about new Patagonia stuff without so much drama :)
PS: And, FYI, the "stove" thread in question is still in progress. Don't worry, that horse ain't dead yet…!Jan 8, 2013 at 10:55 pm #1942088
Ryan (and to whomever at Patty who I irked):
My bad, truly. I wasnt trying to violate any ethical code or try to disclose proprietary info that wasnt meant to be released.
All information about the jacket (except fabric) was obtained by (current) Patagonia employees, including the photo. ALL said that they were only very few details (cost, colors, photo, materials) and were not told that they couldn't sell them or share that info.
Looking forward to hopefully reaching out to those folks.
BabakJan 8, 2013 at 11:13 pm #1942092
Babak — totally cool. I'm sure with some further communications we'll get this figured out well enough. Thanks for your patience!Jan 8, 2013 at 11:36 pm #1942093
Here is some not embargoed info on the down itself, per Patagonia:Jan 9, 2013 at 7:01 am #1942135
@brendansLocale: Fruita CO
Seems like leaving a short explanation in place of the deleted content would leave less to the imagination about what's going on. Things just disappearing makes folks (rightly) uneasy.Jan 9, 2013 at 9:04 am #1942159
The most interesting part of all this to me is how closely manufacturers watch this site. I kin of assumed, since this is where I go for the "scoop," but after this episode i'm assuming all of my posts are being read closely.
I guess I should be more vocal with my preferences in outdoors gear!
-I hate snagging zippers
-I love things that store in their own pocket
-I like vents underneath chest pockets that are compatible with backpack straps
-I love durabilityJan 9, 2013 at 10:28 am #1942180
PM me if any of you want a link with a review of the jacket (YouTube)Jan 9, 2013 at 10:32 am #1942181
Where did the other posts within this thread go? You know, all those well thought out tongue in cheek responses. So the original thread was deleted, then the seperate thread in response to the original thread was heavily edited?
Aye.Jan 9, 2013 at 11:13 am #1942199
Seems like leaving a short explanation in place of the deleted content would leave less to the imagination about what's going on. Things just disappearing makes folks (rightly) uneasy.
i said the exact same thing and my post got deleted
delete in 3 .. 2 … 1 …
;)Jan 9, 2013 at 11:17 am #1942200
poof!Jan 9, 2013 at 11:54 am #1942213
I should explain something to Patagonia, before they ask for this thread to be deleted:
I have, since 2009 and on numerous attempts, have made efforts to check out your line at EVERY Outdoor Retailer show. And EVERY time, you guys give me the snub. Someone at lunch, or you can't because "I am not a buyer"- and that's fine.
But like many folks on BPL, I am just searching for accurate information. We are a community that is devoted to spending time outdoors, and many of us use your (rather kick-ass) products.
That being said, I found it very irksome that you'd support websites who seem to somewhat regularly spread misinformation and misconceptions about the products they review (*cough*OutdoorGearLab.com*cough*).
So rather than contacting me directly (you have my information from a number of ways), you ask for a thread to be deleted.
Next time, Patty- holler at your boy. Don't take the lame route and just censor me, and then leave everyone puzzled….. it only bring more attention to what you do not want seen (yet). Otherwise, I wouldn't be taking the entire day off of work to write up (a rather extensive) video review of the Men's Encapsil Down Belay Parka.Jan 9, 2013 at 1:46 pm #1942252
Aside from the momentary drama here. I am sure many of us are really interested in the technology here with all of these down treatments. For example:
* How does the Encapsil technology increase loft (like many, I am an engineer)?
* Critically, how durable are these coatings? Are they going to degrade with soiling, washing, etc?
I feel like we are entering a version of the Gore Tex story here for a new generation of hikers with competing patents and marketing claims. Perfect opportunity for BPL to apply its tradition of unbiased scientific rigor to the topic, which I am sure Ryan is already planning.Jan 9, 2013 at 7:12 pm #1942340
Some of it is window dressing, and I can't sort out how / why some makers have spent the money for it (marketing?).
Then there's this other one I've tried that is nothing short of remarkable. I can't disclose who makes it yet, but It's as good as synthetic fill in resisting loft degradation in sustained rain, at least when worn in the short term (a few days of wearing in bad weather, stuffing in pack, unstuffing it, etc.).
The rest of them I've tried (all of them that are publicly available) are somewhere in between, and definite steps up from untreated down.
I'm excited about the prospects here, especially for cooler weather sleeping bags.Jan 9, 2013 at 9:24 pm #1942384
Thanks Ryan. I agree that there is real substance and reason to be excited about this new technology. It does appear to work and is far more than just marketing, just like GoreTex was not just marketing. There was real technological advances there that benefited us as outdoor gear consumers.
But there were also real world limitations, as we all know know, in terms of actual breathability and durability to those materials. It will be interesting to see what the analogous story will be with treated down in terms of the long-term performance (e.g.,durability, loft retention, etc.) with the various treated down products. Maybe it actually is better in every way. That would be great. I am actually holding off on my next sleeping bag/quilt purchase till some of this shakes out. The has someone done a patent search to see how new these are? A That would be interesting too.Jan 9, 2013 at 10:58 pm #1942400
"Then there's this other one I've tried that is nothing short of remarkable. I can't disclose who makes it yet, but It's as good as synthetic fill in resisting loft degradation in sustained rain, at least when worn in the short term (a few days of wearing in bad weather, stuffing in pack, unstuffing it, etc"
Ryan, is that a fair thing to say?
You have this forum and a huge audience here and you "can't disclose who make this yet".
Dude.. why not?
We are BPL.
We paid you money for just this sort of information.
I urge you to at least secure a test sample or an early review for the BPL audience.
If this is just another transitory coating that dies over time like WR treatments.. we want to know how long it lasts.
Not going to say; you owe it to us. But.. you owe it to us.
Oh yea, please disclose any interest you have in the company this time.
Thanks.Jan 9, 2013 at 11:11 pm #1942404
@ngatelLocale: Southern California
"We paid you money for just this sort of information."
I would venture to guess that some companies provide beta gear for testing/feedback to a handful, and that part of the agreement is not to make public anything about the gear.
If that is the case, they he would not be allowed to share any information until the company says it is okay.
I might be wrong. Nobody ever sends me gear… I have to buy all of it :)Jan 9, 2013 at 11:24 pm #1942406
Yea, your right Nick.
Just feelin' fiesty.
Also a little tired of the "hot and cold" routine we get from "upper management" round here.Jan 9, 2013 at 11:53 pm #1942410
Meh, it's all hype. I still think aluminizing synthetics to up their clo value will prove a better route than modifying down. Or maybe those new polymer based aerogels that are inherently flexible…
For now I'll stick with my reflectix suit of armor. Somewhat light and guarantees i'm visible from space.Jan 10, 2013 at 2:46 pm #1942625
@stephen-mLocale: Way up North
Is Patagonia off their game charging 700$ for the jacket.Jan 10, 2013 at 4:55 pm #1942662
Hence, why I continued to post…. apparently, Patagonia has been developing this product for over 5 years and has thus, created a special launch plan for the product- NOTE: I bought this jacket from Patagonia's LiveChat, and paid the full retail price, with the specific intent of writing a review.
I fail to see where this is "my bad", and like others have expressed, I felt that this is the type of info that BPLers(such as myself) pay for.
Am I out of line here?Jan 10, 2013 at 5:17 pm #1942673
I can't comment on the ethics of the situation, not knowing specifics or wider context. But in terms of just information value, at least for me, it is high. And a product review will be awesome. Even better would be testing on the underlying down material under real or simulated conditions (dirty, wet, sweaty, and stuff sack crammed).Jan 10, 2013 at 5:47 pm #1942684
@richard295Locale: San Francisco Bay Area
NO, I don't think you are out of line!
The topic of water repellent down has strong interest by the forum members and you did us a BIG favor. I recommend interested parties go to You Tube and search on "Encapsil" to watch your excellent video review; 34 people have looked at it so far.Jan 10, 2013 at 6:08 pm #1942688
@ngatelLocale: Southern California
If you bought this from Patagonia (legally), as it sounds you did, and did not agree to any kind of confidentiality restrictions, you are free to do as you please, IMO.
Disclosure: I am not an attorney. Just a rational human being.
That's a lot of money. I would have to ask my wife for permission — good news is that she would probably buy it for me as a birthday or Christmas gift :)Jan 10, 2013 at 6:27 pm #1942693
"I fail to see where this is "my bad", and like others have expressed, I felt that this is the type of info that BPLers(such as myself) pay for.
Am I out of line here?
You're not out of line Babak. This IS exactly one of the reasons why people come here, to geek out on gear tech and scope new technologies and options for lightweight outdoor recreation, specifically backpacking. This takes place predominately through the free forum content. No way in hell will I be purchasing a $700 down parka, but I do find the technology developments used interesting enough to take a look. Eventually this will trickle down to more affordable down garments from Patagonia.
Maybe there is an Encapsil Down Parka review in the BPL Editorial pipeline and you, Babak, just beat them to the punch, stealing their thunder?
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