King of Denial

–There are no scores kept, and no prizes awarded. —

Well if there's no way to show that I'm better than someone else I quit. I was under the impression I'd get some sort of "10 Years UL" belt buckle at least, that way people know I'm not just some noob.

More seriously, I hike specifically BECAUSE its not a competition. I enjoy walking in the woods and taking pictures, why would I want to ruin that by turning any aspect of it into a contest?

Adam

"People find all sorts of reasons to think ultralighters are stuck up, or think they are better than them. When it comes down to it it's true, this is a hobby and the guy who has the fastest bike always wins."

Such a comment is bound to get reactions but at least there's some honesty to it especially here on BPL as backpackers endlessly parse cuben grams to achieve a Super Ridiculous Kit.

Others say backpacking is a sport or a hobby but if a backpacker spends more time outside than inside, well, it may just be a lifestyle. Who has the fastest lifestyle and does it even matter? Personally, it's not about daily miles hiked or weight carried but about Bag Nights spent out.

Bag nights? Wouldn't that mean just finding a campsite and sitting there for a week?

With all due respect TiPi, you are a camper and less a backpacker. What you carry on your back is only a means to get you to the next camp, rather than a function of allowing you to hike efficiently. It is the destination that you seek, where most of us at BPL seek the in between bits. by packing light, we simply see more in a shortened period of time. Nothing wrong with your approach, but BPL.com is not the site for you. You have been trolling the same approach over at Whiteblaze and I suspect you would be better served over there with some like minded people.

I think much of this is a reflection of human nature and our tribal tendencies. We are social creatures, but we also seek to affirm our individual uniqueness, so we espouse our "tribe" as being more correct, ie faster, lighter, more experienced, etc. It's not enough to just be, we have to be right.

By nit-picking these little differences between our self-defined "tribes", we miss so much of what makes us alike in our hopes and endeavors. I believe what defines this community more than any other sentiment or emotion is the desire to be "out there" as opposed to "in here". We share this sentiment with a guy like Skurka, who will see more miles of backcountry in his lifetime than anyone else I can imagine, and a person who hikes just a couple miles per day, but attempts to take in every sight, every sound, every smell, and maybe record these things and his thoughts about them. We go for the same reason I used to pack skis or climbing gear into some remote valley or glacier, and then stay for a week in the same perfect spot. Or those who pack into a remote lake or river and stay for awhile because the fishing is as good as they could ever imagine. Or that person who will wait in a certain spot for hours to get a few seconds of perfect light for the photo of a lifetime.

I want this place to be open-minded and inclusive, as it always has been; BPL has often been a refuge for me on these fronts over the years, and it's what makes this the best sort of community. For any who would rather be "out there", I wish them to be welcomed here, as that desire is common ground enough.

"Bag nights? Wouldn't that mean just finding a campsite and sitting there for a week?

With all due respect TiPi, you are a camper and less a backpacker. What you carry on your back is only a means to get you to the next camp, rather than a function of allowing you to hike efficiently. It is the destination that you seek, where most of us at BPL seek the in between bits. by packing light, we simply see more in a shortened period of time. Nothing wrong with your approach, but BPL.com is not the site for you. You have been trolling the same approach over at Whiteblaze and I suspect you would be better served over there with some like minded people."

This is the kind of parsing and nonsense I'm talking about. Every backpacker both hikes and camps. A guy hikes 12 hours, he camps 12 hours. So which is he, a camper or a hiker? God help him if he goes from being a hiker to a camper.

In between bits?? Who says by going slow with low mileage I don't see the in-between-bits? Seeing more?? This is a common ULer mantra of the fast and light—you see more and have a "richer experience". Not so and it's a myth, as is the notion of an "ultimate hiking style". BPL not the site for me? Remember, the first word in the name is BACKPACKING.

What makes a hiker vs a camper? 15 miles days? 20 mile days? 30 mile days and no less? Who evaluates these numbers to designate whether someone qualifies as a hiker and not just a camper? As others here have said, it's not a competition.

by the way …

what's an i phone ?

I think Mike Clelland wrote that campers love camps (particular destinations), and hikers love trails (routes).

Anyone can trek a few miles into the backcountry and live for a few weeks. You just need to carry enough stuff. Backpacking is different.

I frequently hike in and spend 2 or 3 nights at the same base-camp and then day hike from there.

It just depends on the location.

And if it's raining a lot I will be more likely to just leave my tent set up and hike during the day.

And I usually drive some where and camp the first night next to the car. I can eat food from the cooler and drink beer.

What makes a hiker a camper? Someone who values the destination more than the in between bits, like I mentioned before. I have not attached any arbitrary load number or mileage number to the equation as you have, but consider that a lesser load lets you hike longer and farther without fatigue and it does not take much to validate the the reality that one would see more. It ends up being the result of packing less. I don't camp for 12 hours because I want to be up on the trail again early. So much to see. Just based on your comments, you like the camping experience.

As far as this site is concerned, its approach is to PACK LESS, BE MORE. Your approach is pack more and camp more. Nothing wrong with that but again, not specific to this site.

You should realize that many of us did pack very heavy at one point but over time, lessened our loads. I have done both approaches and for obvious reasons, found very little benefit to your style. My question to you is whether you have ever tried dropping 30 lbs from your load and whether you found any downside to packing lighter? It appears that you may be afraid of something. We tend to pack our fears. What is yours TiPi? Post your gear list. We can help you.

This thread had the potential for getting very juicy and meta, but I fear it's headed down the path of silliness (terminating in Camp Petty).

Personally, my basis in backpacking was under heavy loads (at least for my weight) and yet I developed a love of *both* the trail and the destination. Even 30 years ago, I sought to lighten my load and recoiled at the gnar and bravado of friends who carried things like cast-iron skillets and bacon in packs that were not only 50lb but in a localized culture that valued the strength and power required to ferry such a load to incredible places. Covering many miles to reach a great place isn't exclusive to UL and, in fact, the UL crowd comes late to that practice.

UL just do it more easily and, sometimes, faster.

Now, although my kit is far heavier and my pace far slower than many on this site, I have shaved and hacked poundage off of my gear list and yet managed to preserve some of the luxuries and utility I either learned to enjoy in "heavier pack times" or that I now particularly need in "heavier man times", ha ha! BPL is key to my understanding and adoption of lighter gear and techniques, particularly as I endeavor to teach younger packers to hike light and –hopefully– fall in love with the trail and the camp.

To many here, I am also a "camper" as Tipi is referred to. That's okay by me. I openly confess to having converted, this past year, to a love of the Zero Day and what amounts to a campout in great locations. Perched upon my 1 pound folding stool, with my fishing rod and kit, alongside an alpine lake that others choose to motor past in fleet-footed horror while I laze away like some invading sloth from town is just fine with me — so long as I've been able to make the trip all the more comfortable and easy by lightening my gear!

To me, that's Backpacking Light even though it may be "heavy" on the standards of those who pack lighter, move faster and enjoy things differently than I do. Andrew Skurka describes my style as a "camper" and that's fine with me. I support those who cover the big miles with the lightest and most efficient of loads and hope you have a great, fun, safe time of it.

I'm already planning my next short, slow backpacking trip in the High Sierra to introduce the high country to another batch of hikers. We'll have two Zero Mile days for the campers, fishers, swimmers, waders, rock hounds, readers, sleep-inners and chat all-nighters among us. It will be glorious on the days we hike beautiful trails and see things few folks get to, and it will be glorious when we spend all day at beautiful places some never even get to see and others walk on by. We won't worry one bit whether we're "campers" or "hikers", but we will enjoy the fruits of knowledge and technique gleaned from this site and from some great advisors in our San Diego HALT crew as we carry lighter loads on better gear that gets every job done we ask of them.

Just for the record, i both camp and backpack. Both in an UL style.
I don't troll, unlike someone else.
Well done tipi.

"This thread had the potential for getting very juicy and meta, but I fear it's headed down the path of silliness (terminating in Camp Petty)."

No way. This will be a thread of enlightenment! Our goal is to reduce TiPi's load.

Up for the challenge?

"Our goal is to reduce TiPi's load"

he has no interest. What would he talk about if he couldn't say how he carries 90 lbs for a month on end without resupply in the snow.

he is the Carnie who lays on the bed of nails… everyone has seen his show now..

Someday I may hike up to a high mountain lake in mid winter and stay about a week. Maybe read a few books and do some ice fishing. I won't spend anytime wondering whether others approve. I will just take what I have learned from Tipi's posts and go from there.

This thread makes me smile. First we start out bashing Micheal W for saying that he thinks UL is superior. Then, we lay off Michael for a few minutes to nail Tipi Walter for saying UL is inferior.

I think you're all crazy – my style is best. It's the best of both worlds. My style involves reading BPL, buying UL gear, then thinking I can walk 35 miles per day like the rest of you. After 12 miles, you suck enough wind to ask Jesus for sweet death and end up throwing down the tent anywhere you can. So in summary, you get to be UL, but you also get to camp a lot. It's a win-win baby.

Ryan

I’ve posted this video before, but add a shelter, and this is my kind of hiking.
Happy new year everyone. :-)
Joy

This whole thread is a great example of why associating any sort of backpacking style with personal identity is foolish. Here we go again with people defining themselves and others based on what's on their back and in their pack. Brilliant.

Happy Hogmanay Mike :-)

I think that was my point, Craig. It's not just that some people define "themselves and others based upon what's on their back," but that I'm pretty comfortable saving that if one defines themselves by their backpacking style they tend to define everyone else that way, too. And inevitably, it seems, said definers see themselves as expert enough and righteous enough to do it.

"To me, that's Backpacking Light even though it may be "heavy" on the standards of those who pack lighter, move faster and enjoy things differently than I do."

+1 to your entire post, Erik. There is plenty of room on this site for all the folks strung out along the continuum from Skurka to Tipi and, apparently yourself. And all those who are both. A beautiful, well written post!

+1 Craig

You say it perfectly almost every time.

Yes, almost every time.

But the reality is that when we get folks that bash the lightweight approach on a lightweight website, which is then supported as a HYOH approach by members of the site, the basis of the mission of the website comes into question.

I guess UL IS really dead. And so is BPL.

Craig said,

"This whole thread is a great example of why associating any sort of backpacking style with personal identity is foolish. Here we go again with people defining themselves and others based on what's on their back and in their pack. Brilliant."

Greg said,

"Why do you give a rats a$$ if people think what you are carrying meets their arbitrary rules. It's you carrying it, not them."

Gotta agree.