Sleep system for Camel’s Hump, VT? 4,000ft

I don't support people who ignore regulations.

We're simple campers. The nice thing about being a college student is that sacrifices in comfort still feel interesting and novel. If it truly is that steep, it'll actually be pretty awesome camping on it. I'll take pictures and share them here.

Thank you for your insight- I'll be bringing both the 20º EMS bag and the 32º MH bag, then. It's the only safe way to do it. I suspected the temperatures would be as such, but I know Mt. Greylock near me never gets that much worse than the rest of my town, and I wondered if VT had a similar phenomena.

Thank you!

Additional insights are welcome!

…………..

My friend (also named Max) has already done the Long Trail, and Camel's Hump. I'm counting on him to navigate, and he has maps. All I really need to do is show up prepared, but I will be looking at terrain and forecasts over the next week. I figured I'd start here with basic background information and expectations.

Kind of you to remember my LT trip- I sure hope so! I'm in love with the Green Mountains…

"Assume we camp very close to the summit, since we love sunrises."
I think this is against regulations: http://www.vtstateparks.com/htm/primitive_guide.htm
"Camping above 2500 feet in elevation is prohibited unless otherwise designated."

If you're going soon, it looks like there's a series of storms coming in, but relative warmth also. If not soon, the record low for VT is -50F (pre-global warming). I imagine it still gets to -20F at night sometimes. To see what it might get down to, check back a couple of years in the weather records at the weatherunderground for stations near Camel's Hump.

If there's a trespassing law, I've broken it camping. Since I'm in a hammock and I don't cook, I feel like I can responsibly ignore the rules where a family of four with a grill couldn't. I won't be worrying about that regulation, and I doubt anybody is going to mind in the slightest- I'll call the VT FPR just in case.

I also don't anticipate those temperatures, especially given good common sense of sleeping out of the wind. I do expect to potentially go below zero. If there's a weather pattern consistent with -20º or more, we'll cancel.

Irrelevant. You are not above the rules. They have Mud Season for a reason, they have camping rules for a reason. Shelters have burned down from people ignoring rules that "didn't apply" to them. Hammock or not you should abide by the rules.

I have a lot of LT information that would be helpful for a noob Grommet like you. it will not be given.

adios

You seem to be misinterpreting two things:

1. I'm ignoring the rules callously and without reason.
2. I'm not going to be ok without you. Honestly, your response is beyond rude.

With all of the idiots in the United States who burn down shelters and abuse trails, the rules HAVE to be there. if you take the time to talk to park rangers and maintainers, like I do, most are happy to acquiesce requests of rule-bending to people who know what they're doing.

I used shelters on Mt. Greylock during Hurricane Sandy. It was against the rules to do so, and the staff on the mountain applauded my experience and thanked me for helping clear the roads while I was up there.

Hammock camping with no fire at 3,500 feet is in no way relevant to the reason the 2500ft limit was put into place. That limit prevents overuse of delicate ecosystems along the ridge during heaviest use seasons with vegetation.

For the record, the rules also state this:

"Some areas have remote lean-tos for overnight camping"

And one of the shelters is at about 3600ft. PM sent for more information regarding these types of regulations. After all, I'm here to learn.

you seem to think you are above the rules. you are not special. I highly doubt that rangers would allow you to break regulations because you talked to them. you are just one in the thousands of people that hike, you make the same footprints as everyone else. You say you are experienced yet don't even know where you are going.

they have shelters in hardened areas to keep impact to a minimum and people contained. Monclair shelter and others are high up but are on rocks. I don't know where Walter got the 2500' rule, i was more peeved about the attitude and disregard for regulations in general. Just because you hang in a hammock doesn't mean that you don't touch the ground. setting up, taking down, getting 200' off trail

you think using a shelter in a storm takes any fancy skills? hardly.

camels hump is a very special place and it gets extensive use all year round. I actually don't remember if the rangers patrol in the winter, but they may. In any case, you really shouldn't plan to violate the camping rules on that summit. There will many skiers and snowshoers all around the mountain.

You should plan on it being extremely cold. Way colder than anything you are describing. So brutally cold and very windy, pretty much every day all winter. It is very unusual for it not to be cold and windy at a summit in northern vermont during the day, and it is always cold at night (the less wind, often the colder it is). So you should plan for wind chills -20 to -40 F overnight.

Here is the latest observations for the summit of Mansfield, which will be very similar:

http://www.wrh.noaa.gov/mesowest/GMgetobext.php?sid=MMNV1&banner=gmap

Here is the mountain forecast for Vermont:

http://www.erh.noaa.gov/btv/mountain/

Jake D, I appreciate what you're saying but I'm going to continue acting about the way I've always acted. I put your perspective up against the lens of some other forum members, friends, and professionals and I am not only in the majority when it comes to rule bending, I am comparatively tame and responsible. I'll be using my own judgement when I set up camp on the mountain, just as I always have, and I don't need YOUR attitude a bit.

If you want to insult my inexperience, it's going to be easy, but I never claimed to be an expert. If you want to remind me that I'm not the one guiding the trip and do not know my way on the mountain (yet), feel free to play that card. Honestly, it seems a little immature to me. I came here looking for help, not chastising. You can choose to help or be on your way- I hold no grudge.

Now that this conversation is over, let me address the weather concerns:

The temperatures are extreme. However, between the five of us we have several courses in wilderness survival, about 20 years of scouting experience, endless lessons in cold weather and extreme conditions, and the pinnacle of outdoor gear. We will move up the mountain with a keen eye on conditions, emergency shelters, how wet our clothing is, etc.

So, trust, at least, that we will not be moving blindly, but DO keep offering your advice. Thank you for your opinions on the conditions; I am supplementing this thread with outside research and both are giving me the confidence I need to feel like this trip is within our reach.

So, you have 5 of you, camping illegally on one of the 5 VT 4000 footers which is a state landmark.

http://www.vtstateparks.com/htm/camelshump.htm

"

An ecological area, for preservation of rare plants and wilderness habitat, is between 2500 feet in elevation and the summit, plus Gleason Brook drainage down to 900 feet. It is studied for the impacts of environmental changes, such as air pollution, on the forest.
"

"Camping

Primitive camping is allowed ***only in the lower elevations and away from trails****, roads, and water, in accordance with the state primitive camping guidelines. Otherwise, overnight camping is permitted only in Green Mountain Club shelters and lodges, and at Hump Brook Tenting Area. Shelters and lodges are supervised by GMC from May to October with a nominal fee for overnight use. There is a 2-night limit. The shelters are open year-round, and reservations are not accepted. Open fires are permitted only in tent platform fire rings and in designated primitive camping areas. Camping facilities are also available at nearby "

"Primitive camping is allowed below 2,500 feet elevation outside the
Natural Areas and research area along the Burrows Trail at least 100
feet from streams, 200 feet from trails and property lines and 1,000 feet
from traveled roads, in accordance with Primitive Camping regulations
and Leave No Trace principles."

This is a STATE PARK. Hike and camp within the rules.

You are THAT guy. I have zero respect for that and my "attitude" is one of respect for the mountains and trails that you are using.

Gumby….

Edit: email these guys and copy both your email asking to camp illegally and their reply parks@state.vt.us

I haven't camped yet. I haven't decided where I'm camping. I told you I would use my own judgement. You need to find something better to do.

You have said that you are going to disregard the regulations of the state park.

you need to take some responsibility, especially if you are a leader of an outdoor club, and follow the rules and regulations that are put in place for a reason. They were put there by people much more experienced than you and you should respect them.

you should find a new hike if you cannot follow simple and well reasoned rules in a state park..

conservationist my ass..

I understand why I was wrong. I'm making a different judgement call. I have said this several times. I have not broken any camping rules in the state of Vermont in my life.

Can you stop insulting me? I'm not insulting you.

You're acting like I already did it.

you are trying to get others to justify your actions in the other thread.

Camp at Monclair Glen shelter. it will be warmer, drier and legal. you have not said what loop you are taking so i cannot say where another good shelter would be since i've only been on the LT section. if you spot cars at either end you could do Montclair and Banforth shelter which is 3 sided.. you can freeze there so you can feel hardcore.

you claim to be LNT and a conservationist but do things that are 180* opposite.. just because you hang off the ground doesn't mean you don't leave an impact, especially with a group. You say you are an outdoor club leader.. so you are teaching others to ignore regulations, that is irresponsible.

This is getting old- I use this forum for information, not fights. Goodbye, Jake. :)

You don't know me. You've never seen me camp. You've never seen me lead a group to a campground, which is the ONLY place I lead student groups. You've never spoken to me. You've never seen me break a rule.

Relentlessly assuming the worst is tiring and not helpful at all.

I was ready to learn from you how best to approach this mountain- no longer. I will speak to experts, not backseat-campers.

"I will speak to experts, not backseat-campers."

HA yea, i only Thru-hiked the trail you are doing a tiny portion of.. but yea, i'm a backseat camper. and the 29 x NH 4k's i did this year were just in my head.

post up the email you get when you ask the Park service if you can camp above 2500 because you are special.

Hey Max you may want to invest in a sock, you can make one from canvas for cheap and it will add about ten degrees to your hammock set up which it sounds like you could use.

Also Jake D just give it a rest he as already said he does not want to explicitly break the rules, he mentioned he was going to ask before making any judgments so instead of getting on your high horse and yelling at him maybe let the park officials tell him what is ok and not ok. It is not your place to scold someone for asking a question and was very disrespectful. No one wants to ruin anyones experience in the woods here, most practice LNT for this reason, so we must not be so hostile when suggesting someone follow rules and more respectful.
Just my two cents but I think I am in the majority in thinking this way, bickering solves nothing on a forum like this.

Thanks Trevor; Jake's comments are not a big deal.

It's actually a little close to the trip date for buying the hammock sock, but I do have a really good Thermarest NeoAir and a Thermarest Z-Lite Sol combination that should insulate me pretty decently. I'll tie my rain fly down tight on the windward side and huddle with a hot nalgene.

I hear you though, the sock would definitely help. Long-term investment…

If you can do any simple sewing machine work you can buy a canvas drop cloth for a few bucks at a hardware store and sew one up in probably less than thirty minutes. It won't be UL but it will add a nice hotter climate inside of it.

Thanks, I'll look into that. I'd need to find a sewing machine, but MYOG there is a good idea.

It is amazing how quickly the weather can change in the mountains. You really should plan for the worst and bring both your bags and pads if you need to work with what you have.

I’ve seen too many tree branches come down in winter to want to hang under them, but I have friends that winter hammock. (I guess I won’t say that they use under-quilts;-)

I too suggest that you guys plan on following the rules. Don’t wreck it for others down the road.

Good luck on the trip and be safe.