Synthetic Fill

No offense taken, Mitchell.

I can relate to your comment about gear selection sometimes being an expensive enterprise. A couple of years ago, I switched to synthetics. My first bag was was a Montbell Super Stretch Burrow #4 with a 37 F rating. It's a comfortable bag and true to it's temperature rating. But at 2 lb., 6 oz. it's not a very efficient bag. Last year, I bought a a TNF Orion which has a more efficient cut. TNF says it's a 20F bag; EN13537 says a 30F bag. My experience says it's a 30F bag, for the same weight as the 37F Montbell. I use it a lot more than the Montbell because it keeps me warmer.

As you point out, there is a trade off between roominess and weight. Compare the Super Stretch Burrow #3 to the UL Alpine Burrow #3. There is an 11 ounce difference between them. They are both 30F bags. Is the extra room worth 11 ounces? This, of course, is a very personal decision. A similar comparison could be made between the TNF Cats Meow and the Fission. To be honest, when I first tried on a bag with a narrower cut, the first generation Fission, I convinced myself that I could never be comfortable in it. Now that I've spent a year in the Orion, with a similar cut, I personally will choose light weight over more room.

There is nothing particularly technical about the EN13537 ratings. It's just a way of of independently comparing temperature ratings across brands. If it were more widely used, we could all just ignore the manufacturers' temperature ratings and make wiser choices with our $$$.

Dondo: By the way, where do you find these comparison charts for bags using the EN13537 data? Been googling and can't seem to get the search right. Any help would be appreciated.

Mitchell, there are no comparison charts that I know of. I had to look up the ratings and construct my own. Of the American brands, I've only been able to find ratings for The North Face and Marmot. For TNF, go to their main page and click on the European version of the site. For Marmot, go to their European site at Marmot.de. While you are there be sure to check out the rating for the Pounder. I know you'll have a special appreciation for that one. :-)

Hmmm! The Pounder. I'm sure that's a pound of Horse hockey as the Colonel from MASH would say! Nice to see proof. Thanks for the tip.

Dondo,

Did you ever make it by the Montbell store in Boulder?

Edwin, I was in Boulder last Sunday and stopped by the Montbell store. Unfortunately, they were closed for Easter. I should be back up that way over the next week or two and will try again.

Edwin, finally got a chance to try on the UL Alpine Burrow Bags #3 today. The regular size was good on length (I'm 5'9", 150 lbs.) but too snug for me while wearing a medium weight fleece jacket. If I had been wearing a puffy jacket, I imagine that the loft of the jacket and/or the bag would have been compromised. On the other hand, the #3 long was good in width and also in length with the last baffle closed off with the drawstring. The quality is typical Montbell.

So it looks like there are at least two good choices in true 30F lightweight synthetic bags, the Montbell UL Alpine Burrow #3 and the 2007 Fission. Both weigh 34 oz. My personal choice would be the Montbell because the full length zip gives the option of using the bag as a quilt in warmer weather. I'm not sure that the the shorter zip and foot vent on the Fission would give as wide a comfort range.

Hey Mitchell,
My pounder, (reg-length), came in at 18.3 ounces. The insulation is about .4" on each side.
I added a layer of .6" Primaloft Sport to the top and it know weighs 21 ounces.
The good news about the 21 ounces is that it is now comfortable at it's temperature rating, (with the addition of 150% of its top loft of course).

It is a very nice bag though.

Dondo,

Thanks for the report. I am leaning the way of Montbell for the reasons you discussed, and this might push me over the edge. I will almost definitely want the long, as I am 5'10" 170. Also, with the long, I can lend it to friends.

What did you think about the nylon? The Fission shell is a very breathable layer from what I understand.

Thanks again.

Edwin, sounds like the Montbell long would be a good fit for you. I have a TNF bag that uses Heliolite, the same shell material as the Fission, and agree that it has good breathability. But I haven't had a problem with the breathability of my Montbell bag either. Montbell is now using a new dwr, so I'm not sure if or how that factors in.

Would you attribute the MontBell bag's tight fit to the "gathered quilt" design, Dondo? I saw that as a plus since it would improve the bag's efficiency, but I'm not so sure now after reading your comments. I've been looking at the #3 very seriously, but I'd definitely want to be able to use my synthetic jacket to extend its range. Our height/weight are similar enough (5'8.5", 135 lbs) that your fit issues would probably apply to me as well. I suppose that I could move up to the long, but it's a whopping two ounces heavier!

Ernie, I also like the "gathered quilt" design and agree that it improves the efficiency, probably because it prevents convective currents within the bag. In my case, the regular bag was just too narrow. With bags, as with shoes, there's probably no substitute for trying them on.

I have an old Caribou Mountaineering summer bag W/ Primeloft insulation that is COMPLETELY gone flat, even with the best of care. Strage has always ben byhanging full length and it was never compressed unless I was ready to hike.
Is the current generation of primaloft as good at maintaining its loft as, say, Polarguard Delta or Climashield?

If not, is it at least much bettere than the 1st gen. Primaloft that I have?

Eric

Primaloft Sport (aka as version 2) and not Primaloft One is design optimized for loft durability in sleeping bags.

When the current generation of synthetic insulations were tested for use in the Mar’s destination space suits, they noted that Primaloft Sport had the best loft durability of existing and prototype synthetics. See Mars Space Suit

Anyone used mountain hardwears thermic Micro insulation found in their ultralamina series sleeping bag. I have heard that it is supposed to give primaloft a run for its money…. any info you can give me on this stuff would be greatly appreciated.

The human hand grenade (Wiggy) is likely to go bezerk over this glaring omission.

I'm curious about Thermic Micro, as well. I've been comparing three very different bags that claim 30-32 degree ratings: Mountain Hardwear's Ultralamina 32, Sierra Designs' Lazer, and Montbell's UL Burrow Bag. Sierra Designs packs a respectable 20 oz. of Primaloft Sport into the Lazer, the lightest of the three bags (by an ounce). The Ultralamina has 18 oz. of Thermic Micro, but it also has a very appealing dual-zipper design. Finally, MontBell incorporates what I assume to be a very efficient gathered quilt design into the Exceloft-filled UL Burrow Bag (thanks for the follow-up, Dondo), but they don't publish the fill weight (I e-mailed MontBell America about this, but it would appear that they're unable to get the numbers from the engineers back in Japan).

Of the three, the Ultralamina would appear to be the most roomy (for layering), and the dual zipper design is very appealing. I assume that the Ultralamina also gets a thermal boost from the welded seams, but I'd really like to know more about how Thermic Micro compares to more widely used fills like Primaloft Sport or Polarguard Delta.

Richard, thanks for the Mars Space Suit link! It was very interesting. I did a google search to see who might be using the 4DG fiber for insulation in garments and didn't find any thing. Certainly someone must use it? Perhaps the marketing wonks have all renamed it for whatever reason. It looks very promising for wicking and for insulation.

You the man, Richard. Thanks for the Mars Space Suit link. It is interesting that "… Primaloft® Sport Albany International
was chosen for evaluation owing to its high R value and ability to recover from compression."

>>The human hand grenade (Wiggy) is likely to go bezerk over this glaring omission

Maybe someone could ask him to join the discussion. It might be as amusing as inviting Godzilla over for tea.

For what it's worth here's my take on some of the candidates.

Montbell: As Mitchell mentioned above, I think we can trust Montbell on the accuracy of their published weights and temperature ratings. He bases this on multiple reports from satisfied customers. Based on my own experience with a Montbell bag, I tend to agree. So the 32 to 34 oz. UL Burrow Bag #3 in definitely a candidate.

American sleeping bag manufacturers have an international reputation for assigning overly optimistic temperature ratings to their bags. Fortunately, we can correct for this by researching the European EN 13537 lower limit ratings for American bags.

TNF Orion: This Primaloft Sport bag gets a EN 13537 lower limit rating of 30F. It contains 26 oz. of insulation. Unfortunately, for 2007, TNF chose to include a foot zip and boosted the total weight of the bag to 40 oz. IMO, this was an unnecessary weight gain because the 2/3 zip gives plenty of room for regulating the warmth.

TNF Fission: No EN 13537 rating available. It has the same cut and a similar amount of insulation to the Orion. I'm guessing that this is a least a 30F bag. At a 34 oz. total weight, this Climashiled XP bag is a candidate if you're OK with the 1/3 zip.

Marmot Pounder Plus: This Primaloft Sport bag has a wider cut than the TNF bags. Insulation weight is 23 oz.; total weight 34 oz. But the EN13537 lower limit rating is 36F, so it may not be warm enough for folks looking for a true 30F bag.

Sierra Designs Lazer: Similar cut to the TNF Orion. But with 20 oz. of Primaloft Sport compared with 26 oz. for the Orion, I doubt that it would earn a EN13537 rating of 30F.

Sierra Designs Volt: This is more like it. With a similar cut to the Orion and Lazer but with 27 oz. of Primaloft Sport, I think this one would earn a EN13537 rating of at least 30F. Total weight is reported at 37 oz.

Mountain Hardware Ultralamina 32: OK, I'll admit that I have a bias against MH. This is based on the gross under reporting of the weight of some of it's shelters in recent years. Looking at the fill weight of 18 oz., I really doubt that this bag is could earn a EN13537 rating of 32F. Thermic Micro would have to be really, really special for them to pull this off.

My 2 cents anyway. Feel free to rip me to shreds.

As far as fill i have found that Thermic micro > Polarguard Delta > Primaloft. I didn't do much research into the effects of primaloft except that polaguard delta out performs it in loft retention 50% instead of 25% warmth to weight, primaloft is lighter but polarguard delta gets more bang for your buck and cold spot protection. It's variable laying technique and ability to stay together prevents cold spots. However, Thermic micro basically does everything polarguard delta does, better. It also has a surprisingly down-like feel compared to most synthetic because it's not laid in a woven sheet-like format. It almost looks like a bunch of twisted spaghetti noodles inside the shell, which further prevents cold spots and feels softer and retains more heat, like a down bag. I was comparing the MH ultralamina 15 degree sleeping bag to the North Face Cat's Meow 20 degree bag. The weight savings, warmth, and durability make this decision an no brainer after a little research. I'm not familiar with the two bag's you mention however, the Mountain Hardwear offers a nylon 20d ripstop with a DWR coating while the cat's meow is a polyester taffeta blend. The rip stop is more durable and repels water better, also the rip stop employs the box containment method, if it does get ripped the rip will stay confined in the boxes that it ripped preventing tearing. Also, it's welded seems prevent cold spots and water from entering the fill. The MH ultralamina was designed for wet climates and can repel precipitation and ///some/// puddling. I put it in a sink full of water and it did penetrate the shell, however within an hour it was cold/damp (not dry but most of the water had drained) and within three hours it was bone dry. However, it's a synthetic fill so even if it does get wet you wont loose it's insulating properties. Also, both of these bag's have vaulted footboxes which allow your feet to rest normally, however the ultra lamina has dual 1/3 zips meaning they only zip 1/3 of the way down, while the cat's meow has a full zip on the right side. The 1/3 zips are great on a cold night or if your cooking, reading, whatever, however if your warm it's nice to be able to unzip totally and let some air in. The MH ultralamina employs a face gasket and tailored hoot which offers a tight seal keeping body heat in and cold air out. The MH ultralamina is the no brainer for me as it compresses smaller, is lighter, warmer (yes i know one's a 15 one's a 20) and is more durable/water resistant.
pike

thanks for the analysis… I was looking for someone who actually has one…

That ultralamina is looking even more intriguing than ever.