Learnt an very important Lesson on Hydration and Salts

clothing discussion was completely ancillary to the discussion of electrolytes (he mentioned wetting out his R1 on the hike)

you'll see some very different views on electrolyte replacement in the literature, I think it might very well be an individual matter and some trial and error is in order

I've found what works for me, basically any longer runs I take an endurolyte capsule and a saltcap capsule on the hour; on longer hikes (25+ miles) every other hour

I believe you were experiencing a potassium deficiency. Eat a couple bananas or even better drink some pickle juice to stave off this problem next time.

The only connection between the two is that the clothing increased the sweat and sweat contains the lost salt. This may have been avoidable by stripping off a layer and decreasing sweat loss. This would be the first course of action and avoids the need for salt replacement. I have found a huge difference between cold and hot weather for the need to use electrolyte capsules, not surprising. I follow Mikes suggestion above, though the frequency of electrolytes would be based on temperature, exertion and duration. For example yesterday I did a very fast 34 mile hike in about ten hours. I took 4 capsules which I think is equivalent to 12 enduralytes, fewer than if it was hotter. I also will error on the side of taking more than needed vs less. I hate getting leg and foot cramps when I stop and never want to have the chill/heat cycles that were really scary.

I think he was merely dehydrated and didn't eat enough. he never said what the total mileage of the hike was. It seems pretty unlikely he'd have an electrolyte deficiency with a normal american diet on a day hike unless it was pretty long. if he didnt drink anything after the couple of beers the night before they would help contribute to the dehydration.

drink more and eat more often. Learn to recognize what you need before you really need it, since as you said, playing catch up once it is too late is hard.

i'm not a big fan of electrolyte pills.. getting sodium and other stuff is so easy to get with normal hiking snack food.

sucks that your "friends" weren't supportive.

Here is the trail information, I was wrong about the actual elevation gain, its ~1900 ft in 1.5 miles to reach the summit of ELK mountain.

Total mileage was ~12 miles and we did it in 6 hrs 30 min. Group was supportive enough to slow down their pace, but we still had couple who raced but I slowed down, with few others and used to catch up with the "Fast" hikers within 5-6 minutes apart.

like Greg I'd rather err a little on the too much side vs too little; all the reading I've done (albeit related to ultrarunning vs hiking) typically suggests the same- yes you can over do it w/ too many electrolytes, but it would really be tough to do- it's much easier and more common to take in too few

"The only connection between the two is that the clothing increased the sweat"

That's my question. Does the clothing really increase the sweat; within a reasonable range? In cooler weather isn't the significant% of the sweat generated by the level of exertion?

Good info on the endurolyte and salt caps. I've take potassium and manganese since I had a couple of bad episodes of the toe curling variety.

Wow 34 miles in 10 hours! 3.4 mph over 10 hours is fast walking! I was getting a transit from the owner of " A walk in the Woods" last December and he was relating to me how an avid hiker/trail runner had recently done the entire 72 miles of the AT in the Smokies in like 15 hours or some such amazing time. The guy had to be doing some running. Averaged like 4.85 mph, though some elite race walkers average under 7 minute miles over 50 km or 31 miles which is over 9 mph. The 50 km race-walking world record per wikipedia is 3 hours 34 minutes and some seconds.

Edited to add I think Jake might be on to something with the dehydration effect from metabolizing alcohol……..yep even with a few beers :( I've heard that coffee can also be a factor which might relate to the diuretic effect causing a hydration deficit.

If he was overdressed.. which seems like he was, then yea, you are too warm then you sweat more. which is why you should adjust your clothing so that you are not sweating excessively.

Yep. coffee wouldn't help either. not a good for hydration.

1900 in 1.2 is pretty steep, i descended a trail that did 1500 in 1.2 a few months ago so i can think of how it was going up.

for me 12mi i'd probably do 1.5-2L of water/gatorade. but many people would need more than that. would also do a snack and a sandwich.

OP: I used to suffer from cramps whilst playing summer sport as a teen, I initially thought that I should stop avoiding the high salt products but I was very wrong. Adding extra salt to your diet won't help because it's the loss of salt on the day of the event that is (perhaps) causing the cramp.

I solved my cramps with nuun pre- and post- exercise and now use it any time I drink water.

1. you wore too much going uphill … its that simple … unless its pretty cold or at lower exertion i dont wear a R1 uphill … period

2, if you DO get cold at stops … use a light puffy to keep you warm .. you can strap it to yr pack … or tie it like a bandolier like i do when climbing … and use yr zippers, theyre there for a reason

3. wear the lightest base layer you can get away with and MAYBE a light shell on the way up … this means something like one of those cheap running mesh shirts …

4 on the way down THEN wear the R1 or light puffy unzipped if youre getting a bit cold

5. the more you sweat, the more water you need to consume, the more dehydrated you are, and the less well you think

6. which means youll also need to carry more water …

7. if youre always overheating or running out of water in the winter … youre doing something wrong … and chances are its not the gear, but the use thereoff

8. technique and skill over all that fancy gear any day of the week for any trip

the best quote is

but most of my team members aren't even aware of BPL, all they do is they just hike.

which is the best advice possible … dont worry about what people on BPL or the intrawebs are doing … find out what works in real life, test it out, over and over again

get in the best shape you can … the best way to lose weight or make yr pack "feel lighter" is to be in shape …

as to the group being "azzholes" … if you were to come climbing with me i would expect you to be in basic shape, have certain skills and be able to climb at a certain level, not that im a good climber … but you should be more a real climber than a virtual one ;)

smart and experienced people wear as little as possible when moving … and one reason why they dont "wait for others" is because they have to keep moving in order not to get cold … or theyll waste time pulling out a puffy (which they may not carry) and cooling down …

When you first said what you were wearing I thought "way too much"

40F and rain , while hiking I would be wearing synthetic short sleeve shirt and breathable rain jacket.

I would wear a light fleece until I warmed up, 10-30 min depending on terrain.

If the other hikers were just hiking maybe they had no idea you were suffering. You have to say something. It's not being a wimp to say, "Hey, I need to stop and take off a layer." It's not even being a wimp to say, "I can't keep up this pace. I'm going to slow down a bit. Please wait for me at the next junction."

Sometimes fast hikers can get into a semi-competitive groove. They're all hoping for a little excuse to slow down and without it they keep pushing on each other to speed up because they can feel someone nipping at their heels.

That trip sounds like one of the reasons I hike alone. If in a group of sporty types, their pace breaks me after half a day of keeping up.
Surrendering and admitting weakness to all the alphas up front? Not an option, not so much.

I'll happily walk between sunrise and sundown, but at my own, weird rhythm.
Sweat (to me), is a sign I either need to take a break or slow down or change clothes.