SPOT vs ACR? Need some advice

"My contention to PLB users is that you ASSUME your PLB is working and you ASSUME PLBs have a meaningfully higher reliability than SPOT. You are ASSUMING because you don't actually test your PLB. You carry it around like a talisman."

Zorg, please do not make false statements. I carry an ACR ResQLink 406 PLB and I test it monthly. As others in this thread have posted before me, there is a test button that you can push and it lets you know whether or not everything in the device is working properly.

I have not seen any information posted in this thread as to the methods used by each device to summon help. My PLB sends out a 406 MHz satellite signal which can narrow my location to within 2-3 miles. Additionally, a 121.5 MHz local homing signal is also transmitted which helps field teams find the beacon more easily. Finally, my GPS coordinates are also transmitted. The PLB will let me know if my distress signal is being transmitted and if it was able to successfully download and transmit my GPS coordinates.

According to http://www.rockymountainrescue.org/about_PLBs.php, "The SPOT system uses a higher frequency (1610 MHz) to communicate…The SPOT does have a GPS, but does not transmit a homing signal on 121.5 MHz. While the 5 watt 406 MHz signal used by PLBs can be used to get an approximate location (within 2-3 miles), the SPOTs 1610 MHz signal is transmitted at weaker power and cannot be used for an approximate position. Therefore, in emergency communication, the SPOT relies solely upon the GPS for transmitting location information."

So yes, I suppose a GPS chip failure will not stop a SPOT unit from sending a help or 911 signal. I do not know how the help or 911 signals are sent by SPOT, but it looks like they may be sent in some way and possibly without any current information about your location if the GPS chip fails.

I went with my PLB because I decided that if I am conscious and can activate it, then my PLB will be more likely to be successful in calling for help. It would be very nice to have the tracking and "OK" features of the SPOT, but these are not as important to me as a higher probability of working when in an emergency. And as mentioned before, the 406link.com addition to my PLB can some what emulate the check-in feature of the SPOT.

John: When you push the test button, you do not test the satellite path. You have to buy a subscription for that according to the ACR information. You are just running a little self-test otherwise. If you sign up at http://www.406link.com for the basic service @$40/year you can test your PLB.

Nobody uses 121.5Mhz – at least I'm not aware of SAR carrying a receivers – maybe civil air patrol.

And if you have a non-GPS PLB, the location accuracy is incredibly poor. +/-2 miles at best. That's a lot of area to search.

Unless you didn't test SPOT before leaving, SPOT was leaving electronic bread crumbs during your journey (track feature or pushing OK button). If the GPS chip failed, and you pressed 911, the unit would send a 911 message without GPS coordinates. Rescuers would have you last "bread crumbs" to start their search. Between the "bread crumbs", trip plan filed with people on your contact list, SAR should find you pretty fast.

Obviously in normal operation SPOT's accuracy is measured in tens of feet.

Yes, I have a subscription to 406link.com and test it monthly so I am confident it is working. You are correct that without the subscription the self-test just verifies the unit is capable of working according to spec.

My question would be how does the SPOT send out its 911 messages? And is whatever method SPOT uses as reliable as that used by PLBs?

SOS: Use this function In the event of a life threatening or other critical emergency to notify emergency services of your GPS location and that you need assistance. The GEOS International Emergency Response Center alerts the appropriate agencies worldwide – for example contacting 9-1-1 responders in North America and 1-1-2 responders in Europe.

HOW IT WORKS:
Once activated, SPOT will acquire its exact coordinates from the GPS network, and send that location along with a distress message to the GEOS International Emergency Response Center every five minutes until cancelled or until the batteries are depleted. The Emergency Response Center notifies the appropriate emergency responders based on your GPS location and personal information – which may include local police, highway patrol, the Coast Guard, our country’s embassy or consulate, or other emergency search and rescue teams – as well as notifying your emergency contacts about the receipt of a distress signal.

IMPORTANT NOTE:
Even if SPOT cannot acquire its location from the GPS network it will still attempt to send a distress signal – without exact location – to GEOS, which will still notify your contacts of the signal and continue to monitor the network for further messages.

9-1-1 EMERGENCY SERVICES POWERED BY GEOS Search and Rescue

Well, that is what SPOT does, not how it does it.

PLBs send out a 5 watt 406 MHz signal. From what I have been able to find (http://www.energyindustryphotos.com/a_guide_to_personal_locator_beac.htm), SPOT sends out a 0.4 watt 1610 MHz signal for its 911 calls.

The higher wattage and lower frequency signal used by PLBs translates to more reliable coverage (important when cloud and tree cover are involved or in a canyon or near a cliff).

I have considered using a SPOT and think they have their place, but this information might be something to consider when deciding between the two.

"What about the DeLorme? It is available from REI:

I didn't even know this stuff existed until I read this thread yesterday, so pardon my ignorance. I think they are a good idea and now want to get one. I am hoping this is somewhat equivalent to the spot devices, but perhaps does not suffer spot's occasional failures."

I am a Delorme customer. I have the PN-60W which is compatible with the InReach but I don't have it (yet). Delorme used to be partnered with SPOT, and so it had SPOT CONNECT with the Delorme. Recently Delorme came out with InReach, and frankly it's basically the best of all worlds- you get all the features of SPOT with all the reliability of SARSAT and GPS. The downside is that it is very expensive in comparison to SPOT or a PLB. A Delorme PN-60W with the InReach is $600. InReach is also available for use with your Smartphone so if you don't need a GPS then you can just get the Smartphone compatible unit. Some of the benefits that make it a "better mousetrap" (to quote someone here) is that it confirms that your SOS has been received, and it allows 2 way text messaging so that you aren't limited to a preset message. You can actually provide information regarding being late, an injury etc. Like SPOT, there are fees associated with the services, and different plans are available.

http://www.inreachdelorme.com/product-info/inreach-smartphone.php

Power is misleading and should be ignored. What is important is the frequency of transmission to the satellites. The lower frequency (which requires more power) is better at passing through tree cover. Neither the PLB or SPOT are going to cover any terrestrial distance – this is not ground to ground communication. Neither are effected noticeably by weather. Both require a clear view of satellites, but it might be possible to bounce a 406Mhz signal off a canyon wall – maybe (but there won't be any position information). A non-GPS plb needs to see more than 1 satellite to determine position. Spot satellites move in and out of view.

I have tested SPOT in Rain, blizzard and under a foot of fresh snow and it works. I know that it can't get a good GPS lock under canopy, but I don't know if it can still get a help or 911 message out. GPS-equipped PLBs will have the same issue with obtaining a GPS lock.

One thing to remember though, SPOT doesn't rely on one bullet-proof message. The SPOT usage model is to leave lots of bread crumbs.

Zorg, you correctly referenced 406link.com above, which pretty much eliminates the statement "you can't test your PLB through the satellite system". Yes, it costs $40-$60, but that is a lot less than SPOT's mandatory fees for basic coverage plus tracking (bread crumbs).

"One thing to remember though, SPOT doesn't rely on one bullet-proof message. The SPOT usage model is to leave lots of bread crumbs."

Only if you pay extra for tracking, and only if the SPOT units keeps working, which has proven to be quite suspect for a number of users.

The PLB doesn't rely on one bulletproof message. It continues to transmit until the battery is exhausted (which is 12-24 hours for most ACR models) or the unit is turned off. IIRC the SPOT quits after 3 tries, but I am not 100% on that.

It was posted in another thread, but I think Practical Sailor’s writeup of the Aegean incident is worth mentioning again.

In that case, GEOS followed their procedure for when no location was transmitted by leaving a voicemail for the emergency contact and then waited for further messages. (I.e. they didn’t look at tracking data and emergency services weren’t notified until many hours later when other sailors reported debris.)

It is mentioned in the article’s comments that GEOS has since updated their SOP to have the duty officer take a look at the track.

While it does seem the the reliability of SPOT units is increasing, the lack of initiative on the part of the duty officer in what is supposedly an emergency situation is very troubling to me.

James: The basic SPOT service includes the "OK" feature. You simply push the OK button whenever you feel like it. The unit will try 3 times to send the OK message over a 20 minute interval. You don't have to be stationary for this to work. Just leave the unit on, (so it can constantly update it's GPS position), and push the "OK" button every once in a while and you'll be leaving "bread crumbs". Your "OK" contact list can receive both email and text messages with your location – which they can plug into Google Earth (or maps) and check out your progress.

The tracking feature, which I use, is very convenient. I leave it on all day and turn it off when I've made camp. Very easy on batteries – I get more that 2 weeks solid use (80hrs +) per set.

My "bulletproof message" idea is based on the fact that nobody knows where you are with a PLB until you have an emergency. And if you are unable to activate the unit – well, nobody knows where you are. The SPOT usage model is much different in that folks should know where you are because you've been "Track"ing or "OK"ing. If you are unable to activate 911, SAR still knows pretty much where you are.

If there is a downside to the SPOT model, it is that it does rely in some cases on your emergency contact list. So it is important that you don't put stupid people on your emergency contact list as they could tell GEOS that it is a false alarm when it really isn't, etc.

SPOT doesn't eliminate the need for a trip plan communicated to folks on the emergency contact list. I set up a "where am I?" webpage and I email them the link (although they've all bookmarked it) and a brief description of where I'm going and when I will return. The webpage gives them a breakdown of agreed upon conditions. (See https://sites.google.com/site/hobbyhintstricksideas/Home/where-am-i ).

Personally, I'm happy that we're having this thread because I'd like to see more folks carrying a PLB or SPOT in the backcountry. Makes SAR's job much easier and the outcome more pleasant.

Jeremy: A couple of problems jumped out at me from reading the Aegean incident.

First, no sailor should use SPOT as their primary emergency locator. Why? Because the ocean is an ultra-nasty environment with a history of middle-of-the-night nastiness that has claimed many a boat. An EPIRB was the correct choice as it would have activated once in the water (nobody has to push a button) and there is no questioning the alert (unless it isn't properly registered – the false alarm rate is 97% and the Coast Guard in Greece isn't going to fly out on every one).

Second, your SPOT emergency contact list should have more than one person. GEOS will call down the list (I know from experience). Third, your contact list should have their cell phones programmed to recognize the GEOS number and play a distinct ring-tone. The emergency contact list is very important and people on that list need to understand their responsibility.

Lastly, note that SPOT addressed the issue head on. That should be comforting to know that they take this seriously.

Zorg:

Agree, especially on the EPIRB. I'm still waiting for the final report, but it sounds like they didn't have one on board. (Yes, exactly.) This was near North Coronado Island, off San Diego.

I like that SPOT seems to be improving at a decent rate, but I still don't think it's ready to play the "primary emergency locator" role on land either. Some of that comes from its not using SARSAT, and some is the GEOS issue. While they fixed the process gap, the fact that it happened in the first place is very reminiscent of the "growing pains" I've seen with outsourced work in other places (and thus my concern).

Third, your contact list should have their cell phones programmed to recognize the GEOS number and play a distinct ring-tone.

This is a really good idea that might not occur to many. Are the numbers easily available, consistently used, and do they show on caller ID?

Now, I don't currently take a PLB backpacking; I'm not traveling to sufficiently remote or dangerous areas. A custom message of "I'm delayed but OK, don't call SAR" combined with breadcrumbs for friends and family provides more value for my particular use case, and the SOS button is an added benefit. Owning both would be ideal, but costly. Unless a particular trip forces my hand, I expect I'll give the market a few more years to mature.

"And if you are unable to activate the unit – well, nobody knows where you are. The SPOT usage model is much different in that folks should know where you are because you've been "Track"ing or "OK"ing. If you are unable to activate 911, SAR still knows pretty much where you are."

Very true. This gets into the grey zone between the PLBs and the SPOT, where you could go either way depending on your perspective and what feels risky to you.

Remember, I started with the SPOT-2 then swapped to the ACR PLB. Here was my reasoning. I don't claim it is valid for everyone else.

I began to have serious concerns about my SPOT when I saw the reports roll in of intermittent communications and failing SPOT units. I also personally had a disturbing number of OK messages fail to make it through. I had to decide what to rely on.

I spent a number of years working in emergency and wilderness medicine. I don't do it professionally anymore but I have kept all my certs current. What I found was that most of the mishaps I felt I would face would leave me either 1) dead or 2) able to set off the PLB, even if that meant doing so after waking up after getting knocked out. If I suffered a mishap that would permanently stop me from setting off the PLB, I would be dead immediately or would likely die before rescue could arrive anyway.

Are there holes in that thinking? Perhaps. Maybe I could physically lose my PLB, then get into trouble. That's where days of previous SPOT crumbs would save the day. So I keep the PLB in my waist pack and secured with cord. That's my compromise. I would note, however, that the breadcrumb example brought up earlier still resulted in the death of the sailors. Not because of their SPOT, but because the incident itself sent them to the deep.

I am willing to give up SPOT's breadcrumbs in exchange for (IMO) improved hardware, a better satellite system, and a more reliable incident management infrastructure.

You buys your ticket and you takes your chances.

Hey, guys, this is a great thread. I'm an old GPS guy, but I have only pondered these various products that shoot to a satellite the other way. It is also good that several users here have completely different perspectives of what makes one product good, and a lot of that comes from what the expectations are. So, when you say that Product X is the best, you need to state how you've used it and what you expect. Some backpackers just like their toys, you know.

–B.G.–

"What I found was that most of the mishaps I felt I would face would leave me either 1) dead or 2) able to set off the PLB, even if that meant doing so after waking up after getting knocked out. If I suffered a mishap that would permanently stop me from setting off the PLB, I would be dead immediately or would likely die before rescue could arrive anyway."

James, you about perfectly summed up why I chose a PLB. Additionally, if hiking with a group, I figure that at least one of us is likely to be conscious and able to turn it on. I've gone through with my hiking partners where the PLB is in my pack and how and when to use it.

One additional reason I chose the ACR ResQLink 406 PLB is that with the 406link.com subscription, I can send out test messages which get e-mailed and texted to my emergency contacts. I have told them that if they receive a test message from me when I'm on a trip, it basically means "I'm OK, but will be late coming back – do NOT send out any one to look for me." They will not know the cause of my late-ness (an injured ankle which slows me down, a big storm I had to sit out, got lost, etc), only that I am OK and self-rescue is possible/under-way, thereby preventing an unnecessary search.

The DeLorme inReach system sounds very interesting. According to the excellent recent trip report on the Sierra High Route (http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=68276), it seems to have worked great and proved useful for at least one hiker already.

I've posted this before but here goes again. I have the original SPOT and as AFAIK, it's only failed to get OK messages out twice. I don't send a lot of them on a trip and have not logged them but do check when I return and I've seen what I expected. Both times they didn't get through was at the TH for CT segment 4. Which is strange as the trees are not dense there. No idea why those failed. But 2 failures in 3 years isn't bad. I'll just make sure I don't need help at that TH. :)

I've tested it multiple times where I was in dense (by Colorado standards anyway) tree cover. Then I sent another message from a relatively open area nearby. They've all gone through.

I do use it to signal deviations from my planned itinerary which is very helpful. I don't want to be tied to a fixed plan so I leave a detailed itinerary and go over possible options. If I deviate from the proposed plan, I leave a series of OK messages showing the deviation.

Here's an example. I leave in the morning for a week long trip. My proposed itinerary involves some off trail travel. I've had some knee issues recently and while they feel good now, if they give me trouble, I'll stay on trail or return to the TH if they really act up. BUT, my wife is instructed that no OK messages don't mean anything. Any electrical device can fail. She's only to call for help if I don't notify her by the end of the trip. If I'm not out by the stated time but continue to send OK messages, then I'm just delayed. My help message says, I'm not in a life threatening situation, but I can't proceed and notify authorities.

I like the Inreach concept very much as you can provide a lot more information and get confirmations as well. But I think they have a lousy services plan. I want to be able to send all the OK messages I want but they limit that. They should really re-think their offering.

Hi,

Any updates on this topic? I’ll likely use my May REI coupon on one of these.

Although the SPOT usage model matches my needs perfectly, I’m leaning heavily towards the ACR. The main issue is the horrific business policies of SPOT. I wonder if they have improved at all?

By the way, from a statistical perspective I consider them to provide equal amounts of protection. Assume that SPOT works ‘most’ of the time (i.e. the probability of it not working at any given time is small). Now, assume that the probability of needing an SOS is very, very small. Assuming these are independent (that is, there is no relationship between an emergency situation and the SPOT not working) then the probability of you needing SPOT and it not working is the two probabilities multiplied together. That will be a very, very, very small number. That is traded off with the breadcrumb feature of SPOT that gives protection for the situation where you can’t push the button when you need the help (you are unconscious, the device was damaged in the fall that incapacitated you, etc.). So, I’d SWAG that as a wash.

Thanks in advance for any help.

SPOT is not like REI's return policy. Maybe that is what you mean by "horrific". I guess the best way to think of SPOT is that you are buying a "service" – you've already bought a chunk of hardware. The hardware can come and go but the "service" is a specific contract.

SPOT is easy to test, so if it doesn't work – pitch it in the trash and get another.

This is pretty much the reverse of PLBs where you spend your money on the hardware to use a free service.

From a cost perspective, PLBs are getting to be a better deal. There are some shortcomings of course, but you can buy a service and send an OK message. Delorme is also scrambling to release it's latest gadget – looks pretty cool. My point is that there is now some feature & price competition with SPOT which I think is healthy.

$99/yr and a $99 piece of hardware that lets you wander around and keep loved ones in the loop – seems hard to beat right now.

>> Although the SPOT usage model matches my needs perfectly, I’m leaning heavily towards the ACR <<

If the SPOT usage model matches your needs perfectly, why would you buy an ACR? A Spot is a messaging device and ACR a locator beacon. I state the obvious but think about it… an ACR you buy and hope you never use it. That's a poor value proposition if you look at it in terms of hours of use for the price paid. Spot on the other hand, is made to use constantly, so you are paying more for a subscription but you receive hours of enjoyment from it. To me an ACR is like my bear spray. A last chance option that I hope I never need to use.

I have a Spot and an inReach (and have pre-ordered the new inReach SE) and I see these messengers for what they are… a way to communicate to family and friends when off the grid. It's a bonus that it can also send a distress call in the very unlikely event I should need assistance… that's a big bonus!

It sounds to me that you like the idea of the Spot but have heard some bad things about them. Don't condemn all messaging devices just because one company has failed to deliver, check out the competition to get what you really want.

"I’ll likely use my May REI coupon on one of these."

Are you sure it's valid for a PLB purchase? Usually REI coupons exclude PLBs and GPSs.

"think about it… an ACR you buy and hope you never use it…. … Spot on the other hand, is made to use constantly,…"

With SPOT you constantly Hope it is working. With a PLB you Know it will work.

Priceless.

Thanks for the comments.

> Usually REI coupons exclude PLBs and GPSs.

Yikes! I’ve never checked. That would be a bummer.

‘Horrific’ business practices was probably a poor choice of words. I have no grudge against SPOT; I’m just reacting to what I have been reading here on this forum and in the REI and Amazon reviews. First, according to the reviews, SPOT makes it overly onerous to cancel your subscription. If you call in 1 day late and cancel then you are charged for the entire year of service. That’s just plain rip-off in my book. Second are the hidden fees people complain about. It’s equivalent to, “oh, did you want wheels on that car?” People indicate that once you are done with necessary services and pre-purchase of a few messages your yearly fee is well north of $99. These kind of things show me that the basic ‘customer philosophy’ of the company is primarily adversarial. And, well, yes compare that to REI. These folks will just bend over backwards to make sure you are satisfied. That’s the type of business I like to deal with. Perhaps SPOT has read the reviews as well, realized these practices are costing them business, and have changed?

> check out the competition

I know of DeLorme. Are there others?

Thanks.

“I know of DeLorme. Are there others?”

Yes.
http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/satellite_communications_sotmr_part3.html
See the comments for recent updates.

Also:
http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/satellite_communications_sotmr_part1.html