the next sleeping bag for an ultra-cold sleeper

One thing that is essential to figure in this equation is your size vs the bag size, and if you are definitely going to use the down parka and ski pants inside the bag, or not.
Having large empty spaces between you and the bag insulation is not good for staying warm.
With a bag instead of a quilt, you can be as restless as you want, and the bag will move with you. You don't need to worry about the open back being exposed, such as with a quilt.

The WM Badger is a great bag, but it's huge. 66" around at the chest.
To give you some idea, I have a WM Alpinlite rated to 20 degrees that is 64" around the chest, and I have gobs of room in it. And I'm 5'10" tall and 225 pounds with a 46" chest. So, if you are smaller or thinner than I am, you'll be swimming around inside the Badger, and that's not good for warmth.

And the larger cut bags are also heavier to carry, and bulkier to pack.
I would seriously take a close look at the sizes of these bags, and try to get a good fit from a bag that will take you down to the temps you want, either with or without wearing your ski clothes inside it. But if you depend on your down clothing inside, you need to be sure that down clothing is not compromised with moisture, or damaged. Because then you'll be cold at night without those clothes.

WM is very good at temp ratings, and you could use the women's(10 degree higher temperature) rating for being conservative in the rating.

If you are slim, you can get a super nice WM Apache MF with the same 15 degree rating with lower carry weight and bulk, and the better fit will be warmer than the looser bags.
If you want some extra room, and a lower temp bag, the WM Versalite has a 10 dgeree rating, and is one of the most popular bags ever, and is only 62" around, so it won't be as huge around you.
And if you want even warmer with about the same dimensions inside, the WM Antelope MF has a 5 degree rating, with the same 62" inside chest dimension. Even using the women's rating of +10 degrees to the rating, that 5 degree bag would still rate at 15 degrees on the women's scale. That's a good warm bag.

So, you can get a very warm bag, but you need to size it properly to get the most out of it. If you definitely want to depend on wearing your ski clothes inside, the get some good measurements with those clothes on, leaving the proper room for lofting of their insulation, and then see what bag measurements would be appropriate. You should be able to use a lighter bag with less insulation if you are wearing all those clothes inside the bag.

And don't overlook the potential warmth improvement of a Vapor Barrier Layer inside.

Hi Rafi,

I am a very cold sleeper also and went through many options for 3 season use before settling with the Feathered Friends Lark 10f bag.

I could use it by itself to about 25f by itself and about 15f with a down pullover but after that I would be looking for my winter bag (-25 rated).

I found quilts nice above 45f but below that not so great.

Best of luck,

Stephen

are you female by chance? … they generally require a 10f warmer bag

regardless find the bag that fits you best with the warmest possible en-rating for the weight/price

god is on the side of more down generally … if yr cold you need a warmer rated bag and/or pad … its that simple

below freezing bags are the way to go IMO

I was deciding between the same 2 choices last year and went with the Sawatch, and have been very happy.

My problem was that as a RESTLESS side and even belly sleeper I seemed to always, somehow, "squoosh" all the warm air out of my very good 20 degree down bag when I was moving around. And for some reason, that just hasn't been a problem with the Sawatch. It has proven to be more of an immobile cocoon of sorts, and has room for my layering garments as well.

Getting a good pad (Exped DM7) made a big difference in my winter warmth.

Hi,

Thanks for the responses so far.

Tom: When I was shopping for my current bag, I tried some WM bags including the relatively wide Megalite and Alpinlite (64" shoulder). I found them quite restrictive–even without the down jacket/pants. The Badger seemed more comfortable. Nevertheless, I recognize that lots of dead space inside is probably not in my interest. One of the nice things about the quilt is that this can be adjusted. With my current wide Palisade and my down garments, when it's very cold I can close the back to the point where the two undersides are essentially touching.

Stephen: I know nothing about FF bags. I see that the Lark is quite narrow–although I think each manufacturer measures these things differently. They do make that Raven bag–the specs look very similar to the WM Badger. What is your impression on the width of the Lark compared to say WM bags?

Eric: No, I'm a guy, but I should probably assume a 10F-15F margin.

John: Did you get the regular or the wide? I'm pretty slender, but just found that the regular width was too restrictive and that I was worried that I'd easily exponse myself to drafts from the bottom as I shifted from sleeping on my back to sleeping on my side.

Thanks again everyone!

rhz

Hi Rafi,

I am 5' 10" and 190lbs and the Lark is a perfect fit for me, plenty of room for layering in it.

Cheers,

Stephen

I'm 6'2" 225 lbs. and have broad shoulders…..yeah, I went with the wide :)

The Marmot Helium (15%) is quite roomy; so much so that some people don't like this feature. I've found Marmot temp. ratings to be spot on. You could easily layer clothes inside this bag; I've never needed to yet. Marmot can sometimes be found on sale.

Rafi, like you I'm a cold sleeper and went with the Sawatch and couldn't be happier. I did opt for extra down but forgot if it was 2 or 3 additional ounces. In any case it has awesome loft. Most of the time i can just use it blanketed over me but there have been a few occasions where i've had to button it down. For comparison i found the WM Ultralite with 2 extra ounces of down not quite warm enough for me once temps dipped into the 20's. I also tried a Nunatak Arc Alpinist quilt with 4 extra ounces of down and that was not warm enough either. I only used the Nunatak for a couple of trips and after buying my GF a Sawatch I quickly sold it and bought a Sawatch.

It is worth mentioning that I'm not a fan of using my down jacket (same as yours)as part of my sleep system so most of the time if I need any additional warmth I use a microfleece pullover. With a quilt it's important to bring a down hat or down balaclava. I use a REI thin balaclava and of Goose Foot Black Rock Down Hat for my head warmth.

Prior to using the above mentioned bags/quilts I had a FF Swallow with extra down as well. If you notice the trend I always get extra down… That was my warmest setup ever but, due to the shell materials I choose at the time, it weighed 41 oz. I used that bag for around 10 years and was never cold. That bag, which I still have, lofts as well as when I purchased. I only retired it to save some weight.

Try some Wild Turkey 101 before bed. Its like stuffing your belly with some nice warm 900fill

Erik–did you get the wide or regular sawatch? Why don't you use your flash jacket? My approach has been to take advantage of the hood on the jacket (plus a very lightweight merino balaclava).

When I bought the Sawatch they only had 1 width which I'm fairly sure was 52 inches. It certainly wasn't the wide. I'm 5" 9" and weigh 155 lbs. When sleeping on my side I'm close to maxing out the width. On stomach and back there's plenty of room. If my down jacket was part sleep system I would probably go with the wide.

I really don't like sleeping with my down jacket. I toss and turn a fair amount and it ends up getting all contorted and feels too constrictive for me. I would use it if absolutely needed but don't want it part of my sleep system for normal use. It does make a nice comfy pillow though.

It seems that if I go the route of a sawatch, the question arises as to how much overfill. I would guess that too much overfill would be counter-productive since it would compress the down in the bag. I guess I should contact Aaron at Katabatic to ask him what's the largest amount which makes sense to add.