Bad benightings

[Greg F]

Day hiking i carry a blizzard bag. That should get me through the night. Backpacking i dont believe i would end up in that situation but tbe answer would be to stake down the corners of the tarp or tent and a single pole or myself as the pole turning the tent into a bothy bag

[James holden]

if climbing has taught me anything is that even the the best most experience people in the world can screw up …

when yr cold, tired, hungry, in the dark/rain/wind, a few thousand feet up … no one is immune

if you think you are and that itll never happen to you … think again … just like the "safe" driver who has never been in an accident YET, you can reduce the odds, but bad things do happen to good people …

you dont want to live in fear … but outright denial is even worse …

[Craig Marriner]

Exactly. Freak storm; lanslide; avalanche; injury, the list is lengthy. Never say never.

[Franco Darioli]

experience people in the world can screw up …

Indeed they do.
Very stupid decisions are taken by very experienced and prepared people, just happens that something else has gone wrong.
In a way that is what STOP (Sit,Think,Observe,Plan) tries to prevent.
I add make a hot cup of tea to that as mostly we do stupid things when cold and or wet…
Franco

[Robert Blean]

I quite agree that freak things can happen. As one poster said, it would be foolish to deny that bad things can happen to you. I have had discussions with my (very experienced) nephew about how Stuff Happens, and leaving yourself no margin may be unwise.

OTOH you need to keep in mind that you can (and some would say should) conduct yourself to reduce that risk to a very low level. I just assert that unforeseeable serious problems are far rarer than some believe. Some of the more common causes of problems are:

*) Under equipped — be that knowledge or physical equipment

*) Bad judgment — be that inexperienced, or just too tired and making a mistake

*) Deliberate decision — some peaks cannot be climbed without significant risk of getting injured or killed (rockfall, avalanche, etc) — you have to decide whether or not climbing that peak is worth taking that risk

For example, one poster mentioned avalanches. I would assert that it is extremely rare for someone with good avalanche knowledge and awareness to get caught by one without realizing that conditions were risky and having deliberately decided to take that risk. It can happen, just as unforeseeable rockfall can happen — but neither is common.

[ROB WHELAN]

Posts like this are a good thing in my opinion – gets people thinking. I enjoy thinking through what I would do in different situations.

It's probably especially relevant to Ultralighters given one of the most basic tenets is to pack only what you need…… but can you ever really know with 100% certainty what you need???

I check the weather and research the areas I am visiting and pack what I know will most likely be sufficient for what I will most likely experience….

But freak storms happen…so do falls, broken bones, animal attacks….

[Stuart R]

you need to keep in mind that you can (and some would say should) conduct yourself to reduce that risk to a very low level

Follow that argument to it's logical conclusion and you would never get out of bed.
The fact is that doing anything involves risk. You may educate yourself, you may acquire experience and you may manage the risk, but you will never eliminate it. Shit does happen, even to the most experienced.

So, the OP's question is very relevant. Think hard about about how your equipment would function and how you would survive if everything goes pear shaped. Even spend a night simulating a survival situation – your gear may not keep you as warm as you might think in an exposed location.

(I personally knew 3 well equiped guys who died in one night, and the sole survivor)

[Craig Marriner]

Stuart, was that on the Scottish munros? Hellishly dangerous places to get benighted; regularly claim lives. Must have been the most harrowing of nights for all concerned.

[Stuart R]

Yes, in the Cairngorms, some time ago now. They were heading for a hut in winter, couldn't find it (dark, blizzard), tried to put up their tent but it was ripped to shreds in the gale, forced to walk out but only one made it. Subsequently the hut (and a few others in the area) were removed, the authorities thought that would avoid a repeat.

Edit to add link: http://www.hwumc.co.uk/public/view/27

[Diplomatic Mike]

There was a bad example of depending on huts in the Cairngorm Mountains in Scotland years ago.
A school teacher and a party of kids were trying to find a shelter marked on the map during a blizzard. The teacher didn't realise that the shelter was buried under 20 feet of snow. Sadly, they all died.
The authorities decided to remove most of the shelters in the Cairngorms after that incident. It was giving a false sense of security to inexperienced folk.
You should know how to survive without shelters.

[Diplomatic Mike]

Spooky timing Stuart.

[Stuart R]

Different incident but similarly sad outcome

[Diplomatic Mike]

I was meaning this incident.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/november/22/newsid_2549000/2549021.stm

[Craig Marriner]

So how DO you survive without shelter?

Obviously a snow cave if there's enough of it around. But what if there isn't?

[Diplomatic Mike]

Here in Scotland, my first aim would to be get out of the wind. Wet and windy = dead. Look for natural shelter, or create a windbreak using rocks or similar. I always carry waterproofs, so i would put on every layer of clothing i was carrying under my waterproofs. I always have some form of shelter, either a tent, or a bothy bag if on a day hike, so using that, i would be confident of surviving the night. I would be carrying a sleeping bag if backpacking, or suitable insulating clothing and a Blizzard Bag if on a day hike.

[Craig Marriner]

How well do Blizzard Bags breathe?

A sleeping bag saturates quickly if it and you are inside a plastic survival bag, but what if you were wearing vapour barrier clothing?

[Craig Marriner]

"Miss Davidson was found alone on the eastern side of Cairngorm and directed her rescuers to the location of the rest of party about half-a-mile away.

The two boys were alive, but one died shortly after the mountain rescue team arrived. All five girls and the assistant instructor, Sheila Sunderland, 19, were dead."

'Miss Davidson' was a 21 year old instructor, so I assume she was fitter than the others and managed to keep going until she found a spot with better natural shelter.

[Dena Kelley]

"So how DO you survive without shelter?"

What I was taught is that your clothing system is your first shelter. My background is a little different and UL is new to me but one thing I've noticed with UL is that clothing systems don't always look like they would be able to handle a tough weather situation such as what we're discussing and the reliance is largely on the shelter that is being carried. I'm used to a slightly heavier clothing system that when properly layered would BE your shelter if necessary (although you would still strive to get out of the wind and build a shelter around you if resources were available). Winter travel in Alaska can necessitate that. While I am striving to go lighter, one area I do have trouble making concessions in is my clothing system, for that reason. Additionally, in my survival kit in the winter, I always have a space blanket and a candle (among other things). If I can hunker down out of the wind, wrap the space blanket around me, and light the candle at a point near my feet that isn't near the space blanket the heat from the candle can keep me reasonably warm inside the space blanket. The blanket itself is impervious to precip. It's a mini-shelter system and doesn't weigh much at all.

[Diplomatic Mike]

UL means that you carry the minimum you need to survive in any particular situation.
If that means your base weight increases from 5 pounds to 15 pounds, so be it.

[Robert Blean]

Stuart,

What happened to your friends was certainly tragic.

I presume that you shared that to illustrate that unforeseeable bad things can happen to the best of us. The information given raises more questions than it answers in that regard.

[Robert Blean]

I agree with Mike

UL means that you carry the minimum you need to survive in any particular situation.
If that means your base weight increases from 5 pounds to 15 pounds, so be it.

Ultralight is not intended to take on increased risk. Instead, the idea is to (a) prune away that which is truly not needed and (b) replace other gear with enough skill that the gear is no longer needed.

IMHO if you are pushing a weight goal so hard that you are taking on increased risk, you need to take a very careful look at what you are doing and whether you really do want that risk.

[Stuart R]

Dena, I have spent a night wrapped in a space blanket. It was not a cold night, nor particularly windy. I sheltered beside a low wall. Despite that I was freezing – I shivered so much I could not sleep. I regard a space blanket to be useless. Now I take a blizzard bag as a minimum (I have not had to try it yet).

[Stuart R]

Robert, I shared the details mainly because Craig asked, but in the context of this thread it illustrates that:
– the weather can turn out worse than forcast, sometimes much worse
– man made shelters can create a false sense of security
– your emergency shelter may not perform as well as you might expect, when needed
– decisions can be compounded by events which rapidly result in a situation getting out of control

[Stephen M]

I was in a faily hairy situation about 12 years ago in mid Winter on top of one Ireland's highest Peak and luckily enough we managed to self rescue, we did not have sufficent kit with us. A guy from my home town got blown off a ridge the same night and fell to his death.

That experience really shock me up and I started carrying sufficent kit (Bivy and some extra clothes)

I always carry a Blizzard bag, lightweight bothy bag and a half foam mat. 750g for the lot could save my neck some day.

[Paul McLaughlin]

The real hard question is – how would you do it if you were injured? I think for most folks with a lot of experience in the outdoors, being unable to get to a more sheltered spot is much more likely to be due to injury than anything else. In 40 years of backpacking I have never been unable to get to a more sheltered spot due to being lost or anything else (mostly because I am conservative in what I attempt), but if I got hurt (knock on wood) in such a way that I could not walk, I could definitely be in a bad spot. Just imagine you have a broken leg and you are in foul weather – you'd have a heck of a time even if you could get your shelter up.
That sort of scenario makes a nice Bibler or I-tent start to look pretty attractive. crawl in, zip it up and you are out of the worst. And it's breathable. And if the weather slackens a bit, you erect the poles from inside, and you can do it sitting or even lying down if need be.

Of course, I don't have a Bibler or I-tent, so I guess I'd be in deep sheet.

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