Is this just bad luck with aggressive dogs or is this normal?

[Brett Rasmussen]

I have been bit by a dog on two different occasions hiking as a kid. Both times with the owner present. One time the bite was proceeded by a "don't worry he's friendly." In addition to this the numerous times dogs have been aggressive to me has left me kind of bitter. Still I am by nature non-confrontational, so I don't say anything when I see an unleashed dog where leashes are required. I have read all about how to act around dogs and I carry pepper spray. I don't want to get in the way of someones love for there dog. I just wish more dog owners could see the perspective of someone who has had repeated bad experiences with them and is in the back-country to get away from stress, then has to wonder if they will be bit by some dog while still trying to maintain civility. I feel better prepared to deal with wild animals, because I don't have to worry about an owner when I feel threatened. How close and how much barking until I can kick, throw, or spray without the owner feeling like I acted unnecessarily aggressive. Because in there eyes the dog is just barking to be friendly.

[carl becker]

IMHO it is a bit of everything, owners, dogs, place and you. I have a dog. I have be bit by at least two dogs. I walk my dog off leash when ever possible, breaking the law. My dog has been attacked by a leased dog that got away from its owner, I ended it. I believe everyone knew I was HOT. I have pretty good control and understanding of my dog. I can not 100% guarantee its behavior, it is not me. Some dogs are frighted, others aggresive. I have developed an attitude with dogs, I will do what is needed when needed, I don't carry anything special. That doesn't work with bears though.

[Dale Wambaugh]

David wrote: "When I encounter a hostile dog I stop and say something like "HEY! lets keep the noise down a little. Are there people with you?" This helps the dog identify you as a person (and a bossy dominant one at that). Most of the time the people are not far behind the dog and will hear this and call their dog back."

I've told dogs to shut up and that has worked, along with "go home." I remember looking at one dog in the pound with some comments on his cage tag about not following commands or something to that effect. He was barking and I told him to sit and he shut up and sat and made good eye contact. I guess he was just used to someone like me.

One time I was climbing over a good sized blowdown and got one leg up on the log to have a Golden Retriever pup pop up on the other side. He was happy and really friendly but having an animal come out of nowhere like that scared the day lights out of me. I laughed after, but couldn't move fast enough when it happened. His owners had let him run ahead and he stopped and waited when he got to the blowdown. I didn't know what it was at first— almost time for fresh underwear :)

[Jen Churchward]

The people who say that it's not a dog problem, it's an owner problem, have hit the nail on the head. I work with animals, and have seen every kind of dog out there act aggressively… it's certainly not breed specific either, I have seen aggressive (yes, genuinely aggressive) puppies, and the bottom line is that every dog, no matter the size and breed, has teeth and they know how to use them. The common denominator is lack of pack leadership on the part of the owner.

As far as dogs on the trail… I always take mine with me, and they are almost always unleashed. That said, I do actually take a leash with me, which is more than a lot of people do! I don't flagrantly break leash laws, but I'm certainly not going to abide by one if I'm the only person at the trailhead. My dogs are trail trained… when we see or hear people approaching I call them and they walk beside me. When we get close enough to people, we pull off to the side of the trail and I make them sit until the people go past. I often get compliments about how well behaved they are, and people think it's cool that they carry their own backpacks. In my opinion, if every owner had proper control of their dogs there would be no need for leash laws in the first place.

The very worst offenders are the people who think that just because their dog is friendly, it should be allowed to roam unchecked. The point I always try to make to people is that yes, sure your dog is friendly, but how can you guarantee that the other dogs on the trail are? If your friendly unleashed dog goes running up to someone else's UNfriendly leashed dog and gets attacked, guess who is in the wrong? And yet the owners of the attacked dog are always the ones who are up in arms about it.

As for dealing with aggressive dogs on the trail… well, it's hard to tell someone who is terrified of dogs to act like they're not afraid. A dog is not going to be fooled by that. Pepper spray is certainly an option, especially since a lot of people carry bear spray anyway, but it doesn't always work and you have a good chance of spraying yourself with it as well. In my professional opinion, the best way to deal with an out and out aggressive dog is to stand your ground and confront it with a stick. Dog owners will always act defensively if you try and hurt their 'baby', so it's best to go for a defensive rather than an offensive strategy (ie. forget knifing it in the chest – not a good option from any angle). For an 'iffy' dog, get down on its level and talk to it… that will often turn a fear biter into a friend, but be prepared for the stick as a backup strategy.

@Bob – Those 'muzzles' you are seeing are not really muzzles… they are not meant to stop a dog from biting. They are the 'Gentle Leader' or 'Halti' style leash which is designed to be similar to a horse's halter. The idea is that by directing the dog's nose with the leash, you are able to control it a lot more easily, and they work very well on dogs that pull on their leash a lot. We use these at work in our training programme for unruly dogs… it's amazing how quickly a dog learns not to pull when you have control of its nose!

[Dave Ploessel]

Just saw this thread, and I want to directly address the OP's comment about considering a large knife to be able to easier kill dogs with….I want to make it clear I am NOT making excuses for people who don't control their dogs….there is no excuse for having a mean dog off leash or harassing people, but something you have to remember is that dog people are nutty about dogs. Irrationally, emotionally, nutty. Nutty and overprotective.

I am a dog person. I can admit this. I do control my dogs, but they still can and do bark when they see a stranger. It's part of what a GOOD dog does – they alert their owner to the presence of strangers. The difference between a good dog and a bad dog is that a good dog will mind when their owner calls them off or tells them to be quiet… 99% of the time. (and to be frank, when my dogs don't back off from a person, there usually is a reason – I trust their judgement)

Here's the rub, if a stranger appeared on the trail and whipped out a large knife and started waving it around because my dog barked, or just ran up to say hi, that stranger had better be prepared to use that knife on me, because if you wave a knife at my dog, you might as well be waving a knife at my kids, and that's the way dog people think… Also, if you pull a knife out, I don't know your intentions, and I will be forced to assume you intend to use it and take proactive measures to protect myself, my friends, my family, and my pets. Most rational people understand this and think the same way. All pulling a knife will do is escalate a situation from bad to peotentially life threatening.

if you start waving a knife at someone's dog, or, god forbid, STAB someone's dog, nothing good can come from it. Nothing good at all. Remember, a lot of people bring guns into the back country (regardless of legality). You kill someone's pet and they will NOT react rationally. Period, end of converstation.

Just whack the dog with your trekking pole instead, or use bear spray, throw a rock, etc, and save lives all around. I can't begin to say how disturbing it is to read one poster saying that he thinks a family pet's life is not worth the "inconvience" of carrying the weight of pepper (BEAR) spray. I mean, think about that for a couple long seconds. He is literally saying that he would prefera LETHAL method of defending himself over a NON LETHAL one because the non lethal one is HEAVIER or INCONVENIENT.

I started a thread a bit back where I said that some in the UL community are so obsessed with weight that they lose sight of the bigger picture and got somewhat shouted down for it, but here you have someone saying that taking a life when there are non lethal alternatives available is acceptable if it cuts weight…. Sheesh.

[Ryan Smith]

I can see where you are coming from Dave – people love their dogs. We love ours too. I don't think anyone here would prefer to actually kill a dog on the trail. What they would rather do is not be put in the position to have to make that decision – that's the rub here. If hiking why should someone have to determine whether a dog is "just trying to say Hi" or ready to chew their leg off? There is no way for me (or you) to know exactly what that dog is going to do.

Do your part in not creating a bad situation by keeping the dog on a leash and as close to you as possible when around other creatures(humans included). This way, I'm not in harms way and neither is the dog. Is this a reasonable expectation?

I hike with my wife and kids all the time and no dog, human or otherwise is going to behave aggressively towards us. If that means killing a dog – sorry. If the dog owner has a problem with it we can discuss afterwards.

Ryan

[Dave Ploessel]

Ryan, I agree that we shouldn't have to deal with irresponsible people.

Your expectations are 100% reasonable.

Problem is that reality clashes with that notion. Reality is that there are UNreasonable idiots out there who don't train, leash, or control their dogs. We also shouldn't have to deal with litter, we shouldn't have to deal with people who are irresponsible with fire, who are rude, etc etc etc etc ad nauseum.

In a perfect world, we wouldn't have to deal with any of that crap, but we live in the real world and as such sometimes that means we are inconvienced by inconsiderate people. The fact that there are jerks out there is just part of life. That's no justification to do bad things ourselves though. Just because someone is an inconsiderate jerk and doesnt stop their dogs from barking does not excuse someone KILLING said dogs when they could just as easily protect themselves in a non lethal way.

Say someone is driving recklesslyt and cuts you off on the freeway, forcing you to slam on your brakes and nearly causing an accident… You shouldn't have to deal with that, but does that give you the right to speed up ahead of them and force them off the road, potentially killing them when you could just as easily call the police and report them as a reckless driver? Not the perfect analogy, but you get the point.. We all wish we lived in a perfect world where nobody inconvienced anybody else, but that's not reality.

[Cayenne Redmonk]

Dead dogs don't bite, and you might have to deal with the owner, but you wont be facing his angry dog while doing so.

[Dave Ploessel]

"Dead dogs don't bite, and you might have to deal with the owner, but you wont be facing his angry dog while doing so."

naw, you'll just be facing someone who is completly enraged to the point of losing rational thought by the fact you just killed what most people view as a member of their family… possibly armed with a gun, or knife…

You would really prefer that when you could just as easily spray a dog with bear spray?

I just don't get that kind of thinking.

I know it seems like I'm beating a dead horse, but I just think people need to take a long hard look at what they are saying and the things they are advocating. Some of these thought trains peope are riding are just sickening.

[Ryan Smith]

True, we are inconvenienced by inconsiderate people sometimes and I would never kill another human being over an inconvenience. However, to me, a dog in my personal space(or my families) and acting in an aggressive manner is no longer an inconvenience. It is a threat to our safety. In those cases, I have no issue with taking the dog's life. Because of the actions of the dog and the irresponsible owner, now we're all "inconvenienced".

The difference in your stance and mine is the value placed on the life of the dog. We will not find a common ground on that point and that's OK.

P.S. – You're assuming the nutty, extremely emotional, illogical dog owner will be totally fine if I kick, punch, or spray their dog. In most cases they will not appreciate this either.

Ryan

[Dave Ploessel]

Again ryan, i mostly agree with you,

but there are different levels – I'd be pi%%ed if you kicked or pepper sprayed my dog, but if you pulled a knife on, or even killed, my dog, you would be escalating things to a whole different level. There's a major difference between me being upset you pepper sprayed my dog, and me losing my ability to think rationally after watching a pet I consider to be a family member get murdered (which is how us animal nuts would think).

I think the difference is not that people place different values on the dog's life, it is that when someone chooses to escalate a situation to a lethal level when there are NONlethal options available.

I just can't get behind that kind of thinking. As long as there are nonlethal options, there is NEVER any excuse to skip them and jump to lethal options. It's sick.

Don't you agree that's reasonable? Choose NONlethal first?

Personally, I always assume worst case scenario: Say a dog looks like it's going to attack, I assume it will, and shout at it, whack it with a stick, throw a rock, bear spray it, etc. There are DOZENS of ways to defend yourself without just jumping to "pull out a knife and kill it" and making the situation worse.

Consider both scenarios, and tell me which you would prefer to create. Please don't give me the "the dog owner created the situation" line… that's BS – once you escalate, you are creating a whole new scenario..

It's not about how much value you place on the life of the dog, it's about how much value you place on life in general.

[Brian UL]

The thing is dogs and pets in general used to be live on the farm and they preformed a job, whether its was herding, hunting, or security. These days dogs and pets have been re-marketed as family companions whose function is to replace children or otherwise give emotional support to humans. This means that instead of being in its own fenced in large farm area dogs are asked to perform no function except shut up and lay down. people are now trying to cram dogs into small apartments and little yards. they act like they are little people and expect others to treat them with the same respect and benefits of the doubt as humans.I owned dogs and would never dream of exposing people to them unleashed nor would I force my dog to hike simply because I enjoy it ( he can't speak up for himself and say no thanks) nor would I expose my dog to a public that doesn't know him and he doesn't know in turn.
I have no sympathy for dog owners who bring their pets unleashed onto public lands. What ever happens to the dog or other people is 100% on the head of the owner. If someone is in ones judgment irrationally scared and overreacts and harms or maims your unleash pet its 100% the fault of the owner for putting their pet in that situation. If you want to assault the person after they defend themselves from your dog go ahead. But remember when your burying the body of the passerby how easily that situation could have been avoided if you followed some simple courtesy. the public has no responsibility to take dog whisperer classes to avoid being assaulted by your dog.
I cared about my dog too much to be so selfish.

[Larry De La Briandais]

"I always take mine with me, and they are almost always unleashed…My dogs are trail trained… when we see or hear people approaching I call them and they walk beside me."

What do you do if I surprise you or your dogs? You don't see me until I am a few feet away? I would suspect that if I surprised your dogs, no matter how well trained, they would feel threatened. And now you do not have them under your control…

The most common words from a dog owner when their dog is off their leash and the dog attacks/bothers/etc. someone else is "he/she has never done that before…". If the dog is not on a leash they are NOT under your control, period. EVERY dog has something that will cause it to not obey their owner. The owner may not know what that something is yet.

When in public places (including the back country) keep your dogs on a leash. I don't want to be in a position of having to hurt them to defend myself. And I am not a dog owner and therefore not necessarily good at knowing when I actually need to. If I feel threatened I will defend myself.

Keep them on a leash for everyones, the dogs included, safety.

[Larry De La Briandais]

"it is that when someone chooses to escalate a situation to a lethal level when there are Nonlethal options available."

The problem with this is that the person feeling threatened by an unleashed dog may not agree that there are Nonlethal options available.

"You" may not have the same opinion on what is threating. I remember being in a camp ground with my 2 year old daughter. A friendly and very large dog came running (off a leash of course) up to us. That dog was almost injured by me. It apparently understood my aggressive stance (I stepped in front of my daughter) and stopped. I was afraid that the dog would jump on my daughter and injure her. Had it simply gotten close enough for me to kick it I would have. I would have aimed for either the chest or head and I would have kicked as hard as I possibly could. It's quite possible the owner would not have understood. The dog wouldn't hurt anyone, he was just being friendly. But I felt my daughters safety was being threatened and would do whatever "I" deemed necessary to protect her. And I would error on the side of insuring her protection…

[Larry De La Briandais]

"Here's the rub, if a stranger appeared on the trail and whipped out a large knife and started waving it around because my dog barked, or just ran up to say hi"

You expect the other person to know that your dog only wants to say hi? That is a big problem. You cannot expect others to know the intentions of your dog. If they don't like dogs they likely see every dog as a threat. Even if that is not the case, other conditions may cause them to see a threat where you do not. See my real life story above. I would have used whatever I had handy at the time.

[Ron D]

Dave – The trails where I live are full of unleashed and poorly controlled dogs, I have had my leashed dog attacked twice, once by a large single dog and once by a group of three dogs. Both times the dog owner was indifferent because their dogs were family and they were not going to find fault with their pet. If you cannot keep your dogs under complete voice command and in sight at all times or if it is aggressive then you need to leash them on trails, anything else is irresponsible on your part and invites injury to your dogs, other animals and fellow hikers.

[Larry De La Briandais]

" If you cannot keep your dogs under complete voice command and in sight at all times…"

This is impossible. You cannot keep ANY dog under complete voice control.

[Dave Ploessel]

"You expect the other person to know that your dog only wants to say hi? That is a big problem. You cannot expect others to know the intentions of your dog. If they don't like dogs they likely see every dog as a threat. Even if that is not the case, other conditions may cause them to see a threat where you do not. See my real life story above. I would have used whatever I had handy at the time?

I don't expect you to know the intentions of a dog. All I expect is for you or anyone else to respond REASONABLY when approached by an unknown dog. Just like in your real life example – your FIRST reaction was to step between the dog and your child, a REASONABLE reaction. Had the dog become aggressive you said your second action would have been to kick the dog, again, a REASONABLE reaction…. What you didn't do was skip straight to "I'm gonna pull out a knife and try to kill that thing" as others have written that they would.

Is it really too much for dog owners to ask others to react reasonably and not lose themselves to fear just because there is a gdog out on the trail?

Let's look at it from the perspective of a dog owner: Say my dog runs up to your kid to say "hi". You step between your child and the dog peels off. No harm. Say it comes in and you kick at it… also no harm.

Now let's look at it if instead, you just pulled out a knife and start waving it around… Or worse yet, as my dog comes up to be petted, you stab her… That's like pulling out a knife and stabbing a stranger hiking towards you because you don't know if they intend you harm or not.

Last I checked, more people get killed by bad humans every year than by dogs, so why don't you just carry a knife and try and stab every person whol looks a bit dodgey you pass on the trail?

I don't expect people to know a dogs intentions, what I do expect is for them to, given the choice between using a nonlethal way of defending themselves and a lethal one, choose the nonlethal as a FIRST option.

Is that really so very unreasonable?

I mean, be 100% honest: do ANY of you think it's unreasonable to expect people to choose a NONlethal option BEFORE resorting to a lethal one? That's the true quesetion here.

[David K]

"This is impossible. You cannot keep ANY dog under complete voice control."

You obviously have never been to a sheep dog trials. You would be totally amazed at what Border Collies can do being directed with only hand signals. You truly won't believe your eyes.

Having been both a dog and cat owner and still a lover of both, I really enjoy not having the expense or the worry of owning one. I see that there is yet another rescue of a dog underway in the Columbia River Gorge. Sometimes they have to rescue both the dog and the hiker. I agree that eventually on the most heavily impacted trails dogs will be banned.

[Larry De La Briandais]

The problem is whether the "victim" believes they have a non-lethal method at their disposal. Change my scenario to me carrying my hatchet. The dog is a Bull Mastiff. It barks at least once just before it gets to me. It decides to jump up on me to play. I can tell you that I would have hit the dog as hard as I could with the hatchet.

Someone else may feel just as threatened by a much smaller dog. I felt confident in my ability to protect my daughter from the dog. Not everyone will. The person should not be put in the position in the first place. The dog should not be endangered either. That is irresponsible dog ownership and ALL consequences are the fault of the owner.

BTW, in my case the dog only veered away about two or three "steps" from me. I should't have been placed in that situation. The owner is the one that deserved a kick to the head! ;^)

And yes, one should use a non-lethal method to stop an attack if they believe it will work and have the opportunity. However, it is up to the "victim" to make that determination.

[Ryan Smith]

"Don't you agree that's reasonable? Choose NONlethal first?"

It's as reasonable as me asking you to please keep your dog on a leash, but as you said, we live in the real world. If dog owners loved their dogs as much as they say, why not keep them out of potentially dangerous situations? Knowing that some people would kick, pepper spray or try to harm your dog on the trail.

Ultimately, I place my life and my family's lives above ANY animals. I'm not going to take the chance on trying to kick it, find a rock, etc. Most dogs are much quicker than I am. I honestly don't care if the dog owner loses the ability to think rationally.

Ryan

[Larry De La Briandais]

"You obviously have never been to a sheep dog trials. You would be totally amazed at what Border Collies can do being directed with only hand signals. You truly won't believe your eyes."

I have not, but I stand by my statement. The more/better trained the dog the more under control they will be. However, there is something that will cause them to ignore commands from their owner. There may be very few things, but there will always be something.

[Paul Magnanti]

"As far as dogs on the trail… I always take mine with me, and they are almost always unleashed. That said…SNIP….My dogs are trail trained… when we see or hear people approaching I call them and they walk beside me"

Not doubting you per se, but EVERY dog owner says that as justification about why they can ignore leash laws.

My impression of this type of sentiment is:

"These laws don't apply to me because my dog is well trained".

Besides being a sentiment I don't agree with, it is also not truly the case I find in many instances.

Perhaps I am a bit of a meanie, but dog owners choose to take their dogs where leashes are required and should not think the regulation does not apply to them. They are just making it more difficult for the dog owners who obey the regs. Owners who flaunt leash laws make it easy for Open Space mangers to decided to ban dogs all together in an area. Plus, the dog owners have a choice: They can choose to go where leashes aren't required.

As for the fabled border collie who is a combo of Lassie, Rin Tin Tin and Mr Peabody, I doubt the average golden lab who is named "Whitney" with a bandanna around his neck and carted around in a Subaru wagon with CO-EXIST and/or INSERT LOCAL FOOD CO-OP HERE bumper stickers have that same level of training, discipline and experience as our legendary border collie (TM). ;-)

[Jason Elsworth]

Back in my cycling days, about 25 years ago now, I read the wonderful Richard's Bicycle Book by Richard Ballantine. The best book ever written on the subject.

The section on dealing with dogs has always stuck in my memory. He advocates a take no prisoners approach. Suumarised here http://www.ditdotdat.org/bigcity/2007/01/how-do-you-fend-off-a-dangerous-dog/

Please note I am not endorsing this approach and have had dogs all my life. Currently one rather lazy retired Greyhound who is never off the leash.

[Ryan Smith]

"As for the fabled border collie who is a combo of Lassie, Rin Tin Tin and Mr Peabody, I doubt the average golden lab who is named "Whitney" with a bandanna around his neck and carted around in a Subaru wagon with CO-EXIST and/or INSERT LOCAL FOOD CO-OP HERE bumper stickers have that same level of training, discipline and experience as our legendary border collie (TM). ;-)"

Mags-

I rarely open-mouth laugh at posts on BPL, but this one got me. Bravo my friend.

Ryan

[Author]

Posts