Used Toilet Paper – Pack it out!

[Justin Baker]

Would putting a big rock or log over your cat hole stop animals from getting at it?

[Jerry Adams]

If you dig a hole, #2, TP, urinate, stir, like 100 feet from campsite, then put several inches of soil on top you're good.

It's so easy to carry out the TP you can do that. If so, you should still urinate and stir the p00p and cover with several inches of soil.

Don't need rock or log, but that wouldn't hurt

[Harald Hope]

wow, more useful info re areas of backpacking that don't get that much focus.

Just to add my 2 cents, I see those trail pieces of toilet paper, and in almost all cases, it's quite obvious that they are from people who did not bury their waste properly. Day hikers, and your typical lame backpackers who know nothing and then just go wherever because they have to that minute by the looks of it, at least to my eyes. You know, tree right by trail, etc.

And I suspect, women / girls hiking who insist on using tp even for just pee, and who just don't think about it, since no hole was dug. The numbers of backpackers out there who give this stuff the kind of thought you're giving it here, which is by the way great to see, is I would guess fairly small as a percentage of the total.

But I rarely see properly buried stuff dug up, can't really think of cases where I have, it's almost always barely buried or not buried at all that I see.

I'd say that accounts for pretty much everything I've noticed over the last year when it comes to visible tp.

Up higher though I suspect that the problem is far worse, and the decay of the tp takes a lot longer.

But it's all good info, along with the poo trowel thread, nice stuff to revisit and think about again, too many humans wandering around too small areas in too unnatural a manner, with too little education and training, something's got to give.

[Stephen Barber]

First: When TP, p00p, dirt and water/urine are purreed, the TP is no longer visible, if some animal digs it up – it disintegrates with the liquid and stirring.

Second: A number of women dry pee off with TP because if the urine remains in the folds of delicate skin, they develop a nasty rash in a very sensitive area. Rather than saying they shouldn't use TP for that, we need to do a better job with educating on how to disintegrate or pack out the TP.

[James Marco]

I think that soil conditions have a lot to do with it. And rainfall, of course. In general, the western and Rocky Mountains have a much higher percentage of sand or mineral soil. Most of the ADK,s, in counter point, has mostly fabric soils or 4-5 feet of duff over everything (or down to rock) having been extensivly scoured by glaciation. Even visiting the same location after a year, there is no sighns of TP around. Just a fresh coating of needles and leaves.

Out west, (excluding the north west) it is much drier. In the ADK's, the average rains are about 1 in three days. (Varies between two weeks of rain/snow and two weeks of no rain.) The duff is highly acidic. Most water in the ADK's is dark brown. A few streams, near headwaters, or are spring fed are clear…a few. Mostly the water out wast is fairly clear with some turbidity, sand and mineral dust.

All together, we are generalizing a topic that may not be that amenable to being generalized. P00ping on the tops of western mountains, where it can dry, rather than decompose, is never good. Same for the TP we use. P00ping in the middle of the ADK's does not hurt anything (provided we don't contaminate water sources.) Everything is already in a state of decay.

So, based on that, I would say the rate of decay for pee, p00p and TP varies just looking at the USA. Use common sense when you have to go and look at the surrounding terrain. Burying too deep in mineral soil can cause it to not break down…no oxygen. Too shallow and some critters (notably porcupines in the ADK's) will dig it up for the salt. Be carefull about how deep you go, based on the soil type you are digging in, if you decide to bury it. And be aware of any critters in the area that may dig it up. Like I say, burning TP is OK if fires are allowed. If you don't know, or it is mandated, carry it out.

[Greg Mihalik]

"Second: A number of women dry pee off with TP because if the urine remains in the folds of delicate skin, they develop a nasty rash in a very sensitive area. Rather than saying they shouldn't use TP for that, we need to do a better job with educating on how to disintegrate or pack out the TP."

Women participating in a NOLS course will have a bandana tied to their packs. It's used as a pee wipe. It dries fast, its sterile, and does not smell. It works.

[Diane “Piper” Soini]

After hiking through clear-cuts owned by Kimberly-Clark, I think the TP should be returned to the forest. But it shouldn't be left lying around as an eyesore.

[Kevin Babione]

After doing my business one afternoon in a torrential rainstorm and finding that my TP got wet and became globbed together, I switched to using a quarter square of a disposable blue shop towel from Wal-Mart.

It's much tougher than standard TP and works well even if it gets wet.

I can't tell you how it decomposes or burns because I always pack it out with me…

[M B]

at least wild pigs will eat it.

[Mary D]

I use paper towels, too–kitchen towels, the kind with 11" x 5.4" rectangles. They are far more absorbent and far less apt to "blow holes" than TP, but of course they do have to be packed out, since they don't do well as "p00p soup." I also have to use a baby wipe every day for medical reasons, and that also has to be packed out.

While I don't need to use TP after #1, my 10-year-old granddaughter definitely does, or she gets an extremely painful rash. I've taught her to carry two ziploc sandwich bags in her pocket, one for clean TP (one square at a time is enough) and the other for the used TP. The one with the used TP goes into the garbage every evening. As I mentioned on another post, our lunch/snacks are in sandwich bags, so each of us has an empty used sandwich bag available each evening for the next day's use.

[Dena Kelley]

On the topic of women who "insist on using tp just for a pee"- Yes, we do. We don't have the same equipment as men (you might have noticed) and our urethra is only about an inch long vs. several inches for men and is in a position to allow ingress of bacteria. Improper sanitary procedures can result in rashes and bladder infections, and a bladder infection can turn into a kidney infection. I carry a small baggie and when I wipe I drop the used TP in the bag, and pack it out. But, at least for me, "drip dry" or re-using a bandana or other less-than-sanitary means is not going to be an option. I've had a bladder infection on the trail before and it's not fun and is a good way to end the trip early. I'm all for telling people to pack their TP out but you shouldn't judge them for using it.

[Todd Hein]

If you use TP, pack it out, just like all other trash. It's the responsible (and considerate)thing to do, LNT or no LNT. I don't see why anyone would argue about this…

[d k]

Dena –

There is another option, which may or may not work for you; I use a small squeeze bottle to rinse off with water after peeing, then "shake off" as best I can. I feel like it gets me cleaner than using TP, plus my hands stay clean. I haven't had any problem with residual water giving me a rash or anything, I suspect my underwear wicks away whatever's left. The smallest, lightest option I've found is a 3 oz (volume) Rite-Aid saline rinse bottle (take out the little plastic tube inside, enlarge the hole in the removable nozzle slightly with a heated nail or similar item so I don't just get a mist but a pencil-lead diameter stream with some force) but any small bottle that will send out a narrow stream of water works well. This also reduces the amount of TP I need for pooping, and I also use it with drop of soap to clean up on days I didn't get a chance to swim!

[Ken Thompson]

No judgement, just an observation.

[Bob Gross]

Too much information.

–B.G.–

[Anonymous]

"You are the one doing the assuming here. I take care of the grounds of a college, which means both gardening and cleaning up after students. I can tell you, without assuming anything that oranges take a long time to breakdown, banana peels turn dark within a week, shrivel up and hang around till the rains, cigarette butts lose the paper in a few weeks and the filter stays, kleenex only needs to get wet a couple of times before it leaves a hundred small specs of paper that will be dispersed with a couple of kicks. And so on and so forth. Science is it as far as I am concerned, but I don't need it for this. I know firsthand."

A big +1 As a long time serious gardener, I can second Katharina's remarks. Also, as I have posted elsewhere, I have personally inspected numerous sites where I made my deposits a year earlier under half buried small boulders at altitudes of 10,500-11,000' in the Sierra and found nothing identifiable as fecal matter or TP. I do not draw conclusions about other areas from my experience there because the rate at which organic matter decomposes varies wildly in relation to its carbon/nitrogen content, moisture levels, soil porosity(oxygen availability), and temperature, to name the most critical factors affecting the process. I would caution those of you who quote scientific studies based on a limited number of sites or operate on nothing more than your reactions to disgusting examples of poor backcountry poo practice to think the whole issue thru carefully before issuing blanket condemnations
and preaching that there is but one acceptable way to deal with poo in the backcounty. If you choose to pack out your used TP, fine, but do not assume that is the only acceptable way to handle the issue.

As for animals digging up the buried TP/poo, I have yet to find an example of that in situations where the deposit is made in the hole left by prising a half buried boulder aside and re-setting it in its original position after I am done. And I have been doing it for nearly 40 years now, which means the animals have had a lot of opportunities. You would also be hard pressed to detect a boulder I have used even an hour later. I am meticulous about restoring the duff around it. A little humility and tolerance. Please.

[EndoftheTrail]

The usage of paper itself is a cultural trait — with dubious hygiene benefits. It's why mom always taught us to wash our hands after doing our business. Many parts of the world, folks don't use TP at all.

Is using TP cleaner than wiping with fingers? Yes. But so what — if doing so without washing afterwards can still make you (and others) sick? Conversely, if you'e going to wash your hands afterwards anyway (and you know you should), then why use TP at all?

No big deal either way — so long as you wash/sanitize afterward. But really, if you find yourselves agonizing over packing out (or not) — why not give 'paper free' a try? Do your thing, wash your bottom and your hand(s), then sanitize with a few drops of Purell. In the world of UL backpacking, it's not often that you can cut weight and bulk — with no negative consequences!

Long desert hikes excepted… I use the paper-free method everywhere I hike.

[Jeffs Eleven]

I leave a fresh load/ toilet paper right in the middle of the best tent sites I find. That way when I go back a month or two later I can scoop it and get the best site again.

Its like reservations!

[John S.]

Is that how you got your name Dingle Barry? (kidding you)

[Matthew mcgurk]

just burry or burn your tp and good to go. I wont pack it out unless required but would never think about letting anyone else see it. I have never seen a squirel digging up toilet paper but then again I dig really deep holes 12 inches.

[Diane “Piper” Soini]

No no don't burn your TP. People burning their TP have burned up parts of the PCT.

[Anonymous]

"No no don't burn your TP. People burning their TP have burned up parts of the PCT."

As have people who are careless with their fires, cigarettes, etc. You seem to be operating on the assumption that everyone who burns their TP is a either incompetent or a moron. Believe it or not, there are many who burn their TP safely, year after after year after year. Reality is a bit less black and white than your view supposes.

[EndoftheTrail]

I am sure both Piper and Tom "intended" their messages to be location dependent.

Stating the obvious, we would always be careful with any fire out in the wilds. On top of that, of course, we realize many of the drier parts of the country have rules against any kind of fire.

[Anonymous]

"I am sure both Piper and Tom "intended" their messages to be location dependent."

Actually I "intended" my message to be conditions dependent. Location is secondary as a consideration. Any use of fire in the backcountry requires awareness of conditions. I thought the post made that clear. Apparently not. :(

[Justin Baker]

I don't understand the burning toilet paper issue. It doesen't seem like it would be dangerous, but apparently it is? More dangerous than a campfire? I guess somebody stopping off the trail and burning his toilet paper next to a field of dry grass could be dangerous if the wind picked up and blew the tp away. I'll admit that I am totally ignorant about this, but it just seems farfetched to me.

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