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Special Forces Clothing System.


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Viewing 4 posts - 26 through 29 (of 29 total)
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  • #1463846
    Paul Tree
    Member

    @paul_tree

    Locale: Wowwww

    If anyone is looking for the older stuff, Patagonia has their MARS system on web specials. Link – then go to page 2
    Also, Wild Things has pics of the Happy Suit. Link

    #1466824
    dan Garcia
    Member

    @arctic_hiker

    Okay,
    I had this thread saved in my favorites from way back and am cleaning out my computer, but I have to comment. I'm not going to flame Frank Ramos, but I am going to offer some first hand reviews of using the PCU, now called Generation III ECWCS (extended cold weather clothing system) in the version issuied to convential forces. I also have used the PCU levels 4,5, and 7 in my trips to, but I'll focus mainly on the GEN III ECWCS, I'm sure the diference between the GEN III and the latest evolution of the PCU, but maybe the fella above on the design team could elaborate on the differences.

    1) I have been an infantry soldier and in special forces (national guard) for 16 years now. Not trying to get cudos, just explaining my level of experience. I started my active career off in Fort Wainwright, AK and am currently stationed here again. During both my tours here I have attended the Northern warfare training center's cold weather leader's course (formerly arctic warfare course). My first time attending in the mid 1990's was using the Generation I ECWCS: 3 layer gortex park and trousers, pile jacket and overalls, expedition weight polypropelene long underwear, and a mixture of (Frank was somewhat right) vintage 1950's design based items, such as the M-1951 wool field shirt, a wool sweater, quilted polyester jacket and pant liner, and of course the VB/AKA Bunny Boots. Fast forward to last winter when I attended the same course using the GEN III system (besides camo pattern difference the conventional GEN III has a parka for layer 7 and no vest).

    Both times attending the course I was able to stay warm with both clothing systems and stay comfortable with temps around a constant -20 to -35 range with the occasional -50 snap that would last a day or two. The biggest difference and advantage with the PCU/GEN III system is the ability to stay much drier at -20 and below because the whole system lets moisture rapidly evaporate and escape almost as quickly as it hits the mid to outer layers. The old gortex "traditonal layering" system ECWCS didn't allow for this. Even at -30 or -20 you would overheat while carrying a rucksack on a ski march or snowshoe movement and then the moisture would be trapped inside by the gortex and you start to rapidly cool because of the moisture build up.

    Now I'm a simple grunt, I don't study thermal efficieny of certain insulations compared to others, but I do pick the brains of the locals in the climbing shops and ski shops. Most of them have climbed Denali multiple times, they cross country and backcountry ski tour all over this state and know a thing or two about -50 or -60. I'd like to think I do too, I don't limit my outdoor adventures to just the work side of things. I've done a few back country trips around the Brooks range and the white mountains. I don't think vapor barrier has serious place or consideration in a true acrtic clothing system. The only constant with the army is the vapor barrier boot and that really comes down to cost efficieny most likely over the other option of "is this the best product available" consdieration.

    During my break in active duty service I worked as a wilderness therapy counselor, was an outdoor recreation major in college, and have done several long distance hikes throughout the mountain west so I know my way around the civilian side of backpacking too, and although I'm not a die hard ultrlight hiker I try to incorporate many lightweight backpacking items and principles into all my trips.

    I find it a little more than ridiculous when a member in this thread posted that this is a backpacking light forum and the SF PCU had no merit being discussed here. I can assure you, after having spent all of my adult life in the green suit: the masters of lightweight lving out of a rucksack and long distance hiking (LNT too) are special operations warriors, and a close 2nd is light infantry troopers.

    If your travels take you into extreme cold and you're looking for the most durable gear and trying to go as light as possible, the PCU/GEN III is going to be a tough system to beat. A lot of guys talked about how it's almost "over engineered" for civilian use, but if you're going to come play up here in the arctic, you don't want to remotely have the option of gear failure, even on a shorter two or three day trip that can be deadly at -30.

    So while I don't have any fancy degrees or research credentials to my name, I just wanted to offer my first hand, real world user POV based on experience (however limited in scope it may be) "backpacking" all over the world and using both of the army's most recent cold weather clothing systems in the most extreme climate where US Army combat forces operate.

    If anyone's considering the PCU to supplement or even constitute their extreme cold weather "lightweight" backpacking system then I would encourage you to do it. I've found it to be a tough, durable, and extremely versatile system for cross country, backcountry skiing, ice climbing, mountaineering, and overall winter backcountry travel here in the interior of Alaska.

    On a closing note I offer up two interesting points:
    1) most of us "combat soldiers" here in Alaska (much to the dismay of the brass and stuffed shirts) ditch the VB boots for Sorel style mukluks or packboots (a good practice we learned from our Canadian army brothers), and plastic double mountaineering boots (another trick we learned from our Norwegian army brothers).

    2) When the army first started working on the development of the PCU they brought in Mark Twight to offer his profesional knowledge and wisdom. He knows a thing or two about lightweight mountaineering aka alpine climbing and long distance trekking.

    #1466825
    dan Garcia
    Member

    @arctic_hiker

    And I have stood around a lot -40, -50, and even occasionally -60, wearing layers 1,2,4,3,5,7 of the GEN III system and it's kept me warm, which is a completely relative term at that temperature. Also when you're just standing arounding at those temps VB boots don't work for jack! They only work when moving at moderate to heavy pace, then as soon as you stop and stand around your feet freeze again.

    When I first got the GEN III system last winter I took it into to the local climbing shop to show some of the regulars who are pretty much the local SME (subject matter experts) on cold weather mountaineering and extreme cold weather thravel. They all gathered round, took turns handling, fondling, and otherwise sutdying the system and all to a man either asked where the could get a set or asked me how soon I was going to get them a set.

    #3472727
    Edward John M
    BPL Member

    @moondog55

    Thanx for posting all that Dan. I was worried about my clothing choices for a planned bucket list trip to the Arctic until I read those posts.

    Certainly I see no difference between the PCU level 7 jacket and my old Patagonia DAS parka but the big mother overparka seems to have a lower level of insulation.

    Mates who have skiied and climbed in Scandinavia tell me a lot of Swedes and Norwegians carry something similar to the L7 type 2 which, like the big static parka, is sized to go over all the other layers of clothing

Viewing 4 posts - 26 through 29 (of 29 total)
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