Jul 4, 2012 at 8:34 pm #1291675
I'm making my second quilt using thru-hiker's M50 kit. My wife's quilt is slow to loft so I'm considering adding a panel or edging that is much more breathable.
Any suggestions?Jul 4, 2012 at 8:47 pm #1892313
8d liner, problem solved and wicked comfy
-TimJul 5, 2012 at 11:21 am #1892400
Well, this one is cut, marked, and half the baffles in so it will have to be the next one. I'm happy with M50, but no reason not to go with an 8d liner. Mebbe I'll give this one to my son…
I'm still thinking of how to vent this one. I have a footbox sewn in where the liner and shell are floating – connected only by baffles. They are sewn together where a zipper would normally start. The box has a semi-octagonal panel on the end so this is what I was thinking of replacing, but then the DWR should be as good and all.
The other possibility is a 1" band between the liner and shell, perhaps all the way around or only across the top. Not sure what fabric is right or whether such a small surface will be enough to make a difference.Jul 8, 2012 at 8:31 am #1893030
Please note: the fabric being deceptively marketed and sold as "8d" and "EightD" is in fact a 10d fabric.
owner, thru-hiker.comJul 8, 2012 at 9:03 am #1893036
@retiredjerryLocale: Oregon and Washington
I don't think the "EightD" is deceptively marketed
As was explained here and on the titaniumgoat website, it was originally spec'd as 8×10 so they called it 8D. They then found out it was really 10×10, but by then it already had the "8D" name, so to avoid confusion, they call it "EightD" and explain the inconsistency.
By the way, I think thru-hiker.com has the best quality/low weight materials and great information, thanks Paul.
So, how does "EightD" compare to M50?
They're about the same weight. "EightD" is quite a bit cheaper. I made a sleeping bag with "EightD" liner and it feels good against the skin. Someone said M50 contains down better. "EightD" leaks a little down and is marginally adequate.
How about water and wind resistance? I think M50 is better but not sure. But, as consequence doesn't breath or compress as well?Jul 8, 2012 at 9:38 am #1893046
with the confusion about the use of the name momentum being used for any fabric you sell and not reliably meaning it is the same fabric from order to order it seems like a mistake for you to criticize the agreeably confusing name of this one fabric as sold by a competitor.
more breathable (than anything i've seen)
softest feel against skin of any fabric i've seen, especiialy in this weight class (sorry 7d and m50)
Less weather resistant but great for liners or even shell with quilts used in tents or bivys
less down proof (but this really means feather proof as down doesn't poke holes in anything so i dont care if a few feathers remove themselves from the mix)
much more weather resistant, even than M90 (wind and water)
less stretch and more durability (due to heavier coating)
more down proof
low breathability (good or bad depending on your need)
plastic feeling so i avoid for liners but great for shells
descent price, twice 8D but if you need what it has the price isn't too bad, especially when compared to first gen <.7oz offerings at around $20yd (7D, M55 and orange M50)
It seems to me that M50 is a lot like 8D with a heavier coating which makes it better at some jobs than others. I am glad both exist as they both shine for me in different ways.
-TimJul 8, 2012 at 10:24 am #1893061
It is a mistaken but common belief that smaller "d" numbers have a correspondingly low weight– ie an 8d weighs 20% less than a 10d.
To continue to market a product as "EightD" or 8d when it is actually 10d is misleading as it falsely gives the impression of lower weight. This does not seem to me to be a defensible position to take and is one that can easily be corrected.
As for my own products, I am proud of my 12 years of service to the lightweight community and contiue to stand behind every product that I sell and all the marketing at thru-hiker.com.
owner, thru-hiker.comJul 8, 2012 at 10:41 am #1893065
I have no interest in a big argument. I like your fabrics and service and have used them for a long time. I do agree that the 8d thing is confusing but no more confusing when m90 changed with no heads up. You even assured me when I received my 100yds and questioned you about it that it was the same. It isn't the same and calling it the same thing is no less misleading than the 8d thing. I am not Saying the current "M90" is inferior to the old "m90" (I like it better) but it isn't the same and marketing it as the same has caused confusion and my only reason to bring it up is your statement about the 8d seems pretty pot and kettle or speck and log to me and I felt that must be pointed out. I am done and won't argue this anymore, honesty is honesty and if you want a level of disclosure from other suppliers please provide that yourself.
-TimJul 8, 2012 at 10:56 am #1893067
There have been three runs of M90MR in the six years since I introduced it in 2006. Since that time it has always been a downproof 20d micro ripstop with DWR. There are always small differences in fabric runs, but M90MR has always been and will always be a downproof 20d micro ripstop with DWR.
Call me crazy, but if you're going to market and sell something as "EightD" or "8d", it should be an 8d fabric and not a 10d fabric.
owner, thru-hiker.comJul 8, 2012 at 11:18 am #1893068
I'm not arguing the 8d thing. I call it that because it's what the people I buy it from call it. On my site in my fabric info area it is described as 10dx10d. If you can convince them to rename it that name will show up on my site. I keep the name the same so my customers know where my fabrics come from I try very hard for transparency in my business. I did the same when I was using M90, I took down the M90 name when I used other stuff and when I used both I just described the fabric as 20d DWR ripstop.
I don't want this to be some u and me thing. I brought up the fabric change because i personally found it confusing and frustrating to expect one thing, a known fabric I had used for years, and recieve something else. Using the term run implies to me that it is the same fabric with the same coating by the same manufacturer. If this is true there is a wide variation in their process. I think the term version may better serve what is being described here. It seem that this is a new version of 20d DWR ripstop being branded as a different run of the same thing. I find that equally as confusing as the 8d thing. But at least the 8d thing was disclosed by the supplier once they realized the error (which was due to miss representing from the manufacturer).
I just feel your frustration with the 8d thing is over the same issue that has confused so many with the new versions of fabrics you are selling. Again, I like the fabrics they are very good and your new pricing rocks. It was just confusing for many of us who had used previous versions and expect the name Monentum to be associated with those materials and properties.
-TimJul 8, 2012 at 11:38 am #1893070
It is an indefensible position to market a 10d fabric as "EightD" or "8d". This is a misleading marketing tactic designed to falsely give an impression of lower weight as compared to a 10d fabric. Putting a small disclaimer buried in the specs doesn't make it OK. In all the 8d mentions here at the board up to the time of this post, none of them makes clear that the fabric is a 10d and not an 8d.
All of us, myself included, can and must hold ourselves to a higher standard.
owner, thru-hiker.comJul 8, 2012 at 11:45 am #1893072
drowning in spamMember
I'm fine with it being called 8D if that's what it's being sold to Tim as, just like I'm fine with M90 being called M90 even when it changes 3 times. I find the name of M50, M55 and M90 deceptive. It seems to indicate that it weighs 0.5, 0.55 and 0.9 oz/yd respectively, but it actually weighs much more. Both companies correct the misunderstanding of the name in the specs of the fabric, and I personally know that Tim is very responsive with email. Fwiw, I've bought from both companies, and plan to buy another quilt from Tim.Jul 8, 2012 at 12:29 pm #1893073
@glacierramblerLocale: NW Montana
I will just say that in my interactions with both companies, I have been exceedingly impressed. I have yet to actually order from Tim (something that will be corrected in the fall, when I start working again), but I deeply appreciate his ongoing commitment to the MYOG community even though it reveals a few trade secrets. Paul was fantastic to work with on my recent projects, and I will certainly be ordering from him in the future as I expand my skills. He even sent me a free replacement of a product though the mistake was mine.
Regarding the discrepancy between the products–M90's newest run and the "EightD" but actually TenD–I expect the UL and lightweight crowd to be more educated (especially for MYOG) than simply making gross assumptions based on the names. Given the high quality of customer service both offer, I find this to be a minimal issue.
Just my $0.02.Jul 8, 2012 at 12:47 pm #1893080
Paul, I'd rely on your long standing history of quality products and service over and letting your brand stand for itself rather than investing your efforts into discrediting the competition. You're posts are getting kind of defensive and arguing with a satisfied client is rather poor form. Tim does make some good points too, you recently suffered a specification issue while you hashed out some supply chain concerns over the M55 and M50 products. IIRC you initially had an M50 product, then an M50 and M55 product and now dropped the "original" M50 product, keeping the new M55 but renaming to M50 (and I believe the numbers are based off the UNFINISHED weight, not actual weight in usage). It's marketing. Customers and the internet don't believe half of it anyway =)
You had a monopoly on cutting edge products and many were happy with you, keep pushing the limits and providing top notch quality (like your amazing Silnylon that actually lives up to expectations!).
I understand where you're coming from, but you're looking at it from a biz owner facing new competition as opposed from the customer's POV. A customer doesn't give a rat's behind about the denier of a fabric…many don't even have the greatest concept of this (like how denier is often specified as a single figure when really a fabric can have two deniers) or that denier just means a thin thread but the density of the weave also will affect the weight (a 10dx10c mesh will be lighter than a taffeta but not nearly as wind/water resistant). Denier is just an internal industry spec, customers care about the performance of the fabric. In this application that means weight, breathability, DWR, wind resistance, down proofing, and maybe color (kudos on your wide selection btw!).
Don't lose sight of the forest for the trees! ;)Jul 8, 2012 at 2:13 pm #1893101
I should get over here more often, I miss this place.
Here is the origonal thread where all the confusion about the name started: http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=51752
As for being "indefensible", I guess that is a relative term, I have been using it allot lately myself. There are some "conservation organizations" here in Utah that are making millions of dollars selling public resources, for private profit. http://www.change.org/petitions/utah-wildlife-board-utah-dwr-add-amendment-to-r657-55-6-convention-permits-to-august-agenda-action-item And I keep saying that defying the Public Trust doctrine, with no accountability or transparencey, is "indefensible". And I think the word applies to the situation quite well. But here, we have an explanation, on the site where 8D is sold, along with a very public history of how it came to be. I think the "indefensiblity" claim is a little over the top. I will however take full resposnibilty for the confusion. The manufacture claimed it was 8 denier, TiGoat pressed them, and was told it was 8×10. TiGoat later independantly assertained it was 10×10, which is why the explanation was posted on the website. So this is a whole lot of nothing about nothing, hot air.
In related fabric news: http://www.backwoodsdaydreamer.com/ and http://www.owfinc.com, in cooperation with Titanium Goat will be carrying some new fabrics. There are three fabrics, all high thread count 15 denier nano ripstop nylons.
The first is down proof, water resistant, cire finished one side, 57" wide. This fabric is more water resistant than the current M90.
The second fabric is down proof, more water resistant, with a cire finish one side, 61" wide. This fabric is water resistant like the old M90 and current Intrepid.
The third fabric is fully water proof, PU coated one side, Silicone on the other, 61" wide. This material can be seam taped on the PU side.
Are they really 15D*15D? ;-) Stay tuned.Jul 8, 2012 at 2:17 pm #1893103
Thank you for your kind words, but I'm not sure where you're getting your info RE M50 and M55. Both 1st and 2nd gen M50 are taffeta, while M55 was a ripstop that was discontinued because it was just too expensive to continue to make and sell at $20/yd.
The fact that this wasn't clear shows that all of us, myself included, can and must do better with regards to how we market our products. But pointing out where improvements can be made diminishes no one; it calls us all to a higher standard just as surely as increased competition in free markets improves products.
owner, thru-hiker.comJul 8, 2012 at 2:38 pm #1893116
@retiredjerryLocale: Oregon and Washington
Josh, will your new fabrics weigh about the same as M90? And what about cost?
Or do I just need to be patient? : )Jul 8, 2012 at 3:16 pm #1893131
Great to hear about the new fabrics. When can we expect them to be available? Any idea on the expected weight of the waterproof one?
ThanksJul 8, 2012 at 3:59 pm #1893148
And the OP?Jul 8, 2012 at 5:19 pm #1893165
That's interesting. I had no idea (or at least forgot/overlooked) that M55 was ripstop fabric. As for where I'm getting my info, I'm getting it from myself!
Again, it's been a while and I didn't take screen shots since I never thought I'd have to need them as evidence in an article (although in the link that Josh posted there is a screenshot of my first post announcing the original M50 on the BPL site). My memory is usually pretty sharp and I remembered after there were some complaints about the initial wording in the M50 description (RE DWR and down proofing performance). You then reworded it to fall more in line with what the consumers "expected". This is a hard albeit since you have a very knowledgeable and exacting customer base (engineer-types looking at product specs FOR FUN?!). Then you introduced the M55 which seemed to provide more performance in line with what people wanted/expected from the original M50 (with the new description of better wind/water resistance than M50).
Regardless, BPL members did what they always do, they hoped for the best and prepared for the worst. They tentatively tried the new product, tested it, found it awesome for certain situations then began to trust and like it. Finally they reported back to other BPL MYOG folks to share their experiences. It's what we've been doing for a while now and we'll keep you cottage guys on your toes, even though we love you so much! What's the fun in being complacent and in a MYOG rut?
So from a consumer's POV we weren't sure what the heck was going on and clearly there were some other factors that were hard to discern. From a business side I think it's interesting that from my thread I originally posted back in February pointing the MYOG crowd to your new color line of M50…there were 24 yards of the new product bought within a couple weeks or so and a lot of rejoicing from the MYOG crowd ;) So if at any time I unintentionally spread misinformation on this forum or elsewhere, I apologize. But I also jump started the "once burned twice shy" healing process while driving traffic to your site with a few conversions (as marketers would say). All pro bono so I won't lose any sleep over it.
Keep up the good work! Unrelated but with you providing pertex now (so funny, I trust/like the M** Fabrics more than pertex out of some MYOG-Cottage bias) I think you need to somehow provide eVent or similar non-Gore quality WPB for the community! Maybe Entrant DT. It's the missing niche fabric!
As for the OP, I think the whole point of the thread drift stemmed from the "solution." If M50 is not breathable enough for lofting for his application, use a more breathable fabric as a liner. In this weight class that would be the 10d*10d fabric with the unfortunately inaccurate name of "EightD" or the original M50 if it could be found. If you're to believe Tim, and you probably should, then the "EightD" will also just feel better against the skin too.
(Side note, if RutaLocura feels badly enough about the product naming they could always rename it "TenD" with a parenthetical "Previously known as EightD but renamed to better represent yadda yadda yadda").Jul 8, 2012 at 10:20 pm #1893257
"(Side note, if RutaLocura feels badly enough about the product naming they could always rename it "TenD" with a parenthetical "Previously known as EightD but renamed to better represent yadda yadda yadda")."
That was essentially done months ago at Titanium Goat, They sell the "8D" fabric, I no longer work for Titaniuum Goat. Let me reiterate, there has been a note about 8D being a 10 denier fabric on the TiGoat website for months. This is a non issue, especially given who raised the issue.
OP, I would find some "gen 1" M50, it is very breathable, being a 10D*10D jacquard weave with minimal DWR treatment. Unlike the "Gen 2" that is a 10D*10D plain weave cired both sides. The only thing the two have in common is misrepresented specifications.
Touche kettle, touche….
Did anyone sign my petition?Jul 9, 2012 at 4:02 am #1893281
Jacquard is not a weave, it is a type of loom. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacquard_loom
owner, thru-hiker.comJul 9, 2012 at 4:24 am #1893283Jul 9, 2012 at 6:09 am #1893291
The reason why nobody talks about the specific looms at retail outdoor fabric sources is because it is needlessly technical, but for the folks who want to get their nerd on, the specific type of loom used for M50v1 was a dobby loom, not a Jacquard loom. I enjoy talking about this kind of things with customers, so feel free to call and chat. And for folks searching for some boneheaded thing I've said or done at some point in the past, I'll save you the time and say right now that I've had my share.
Josh, I thought your 7d x 10d downproof breathable ripstop was quite impressive. But it's needlessly misleading to continue branding a 10d product "EightD".
owner, thru-hiker.comJul 9, 2012 at 12:37 pm #1893385
"Jaquard" weaves can be produced on jacquard or doby looms. Jacquard looms predate doby looms, which is why terminology deffers to the jacquard(pattern) weave. Neither process produces a plain weave "taffeta". DIYers, take a magnifying glass to your samples of gen 1 M50. Notice that there is a pattern to the weave, not just a plain bi directional weave, like "gen2" M50. It is this jacquard weave of the gen 1 M50 that causes it to have soo much bias stretch. That is also why its down proofness is marginal. It was also called a ripstop very early on, this is no doubt because of the pattern in the weave, that was percieved to be ripstop threads.
Paul if you add "generation" discaimers to M50 and M90, and/or rename them, so people are not confused about what they are buying now, versus what used to be called M50 or M90, I will get Titanium Goat to rename "8D" something that does not even reffer to denier.
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