Feb 27, 2007 at 9:12 pm #1222083
@bugbombLocale: South Texas
Companion forum thread to:Feb 27, 2007 at 10:31 pm #1380368
@awsorensenLocale: South of Forester Pass
So all Nemo needs to do is send some tents out for some real R&D, (which I'm sure they do).
I'm still amazed that MLD has a 2oz/sq yrd Event.
I would like to believe that if they did a Contrail single pole style tent, (maybe even supported by your trekking poles), that it would come in under 3 lbs.
If Event is really going to be "that good", against even the newest fabrics, then why don't companies look at the sub 3 lbs.
Isn't that what we want anyway?Feb 27, 2007 at 10:53 pm #1380370
If you want an eVent tent, Exped still have the Polaris.
It was originally called eVent, than it changed to something like hiVent, now OR and a few other sites call it a PTFE laminate. It is still eVent….
Nice tent BTW, largish for two, a good size vestibule, decent headroom and freestanding.
FrancoFeb 28, 2007 at 8:41 am #1380409
Huh? My understanding of this article is that eVent is most likely the superior fabric technology in existence today but is unavailable because a monolithic corporation now owns the patent and won’t market or sell it due to lack of economic incentive??Feb 28, 2007 at 9:52 am #1380425
@sharaldsLocale: Gallatin Range
> Consumers would benefit from having that
> data publicly available. It would boost
> sales of the top performer and drive
> innovation among the lagging competitors.
> The overall result would be better products
> for everyone down the road.
Judging by BPLs conclusions, eVENT fabrics would come out "on top". Since GE has proprietary rights to it and they have probably weighed to risk/return they might not necessarily care that they have patents on the most breathable fabric.Feb 28, 2007 at 10:01 am #1380427
Ryan and Wilt:
Thanks for the excellent article — and especially your attempts in comparing the various different options out there.
I am curious about where MontBell's Breeze Dry Tec laminate stands? MB claims that its laminate is similar to eVENT in that it too dispenses with PU coatings. I own a MontBell Peak Shell jacket which uses this laminate and am quite happy with it.
Jackets aside, MontBell has recently introduced single-wall alpine dome tents in solo, two, three and four-person configurations, using its Breeze Dry Tec laminate.
The site is in Japanese, but the illustrations, floor plan and dimensions are self-explanatory.Feb 28, 2007 at 1:09 pm #1380455
For some reason, I love these "eVENT vs. Gore (and others)" discussions. I never seem to be able to resist to reply.
Interesting read, with few surprises but good in that it puts the different elements together.
Although I agree with most what was said, I'm a little hesitant to conclude that eVENT is the superior fabric of all those mentioned. While that is possibly true if compared with the TPU coatings, i'm not sure that is also the case if compared with the PTFE based tent fabrics. While I don't know that much about about Toddex and Tegraltex (are they air permeable knock offs of the first generation gore-tex or knock offs of the 2nd generation bicomponet gore-tex ?), both the Terra Nova GTX Flo2 and the OR GTX respiration positive are claimed to be air permeable. Afaik, that's only possible if these membranes have an open pore structure like eVENT and since it is this open pore structure which gives eVENT its superior breathability, there seems to be no reason to assume that these 2 GTX-mebranes definitely should perform worse than eVENT.
There's that mysterious sentence from Gore that 'the PU layer is not quite the same like in gore-tex used for jackets'. This probably means 1 of 2 things: or there is no PU layuer at all or it coats the interior of the membrane just like eVENT. I highly doubt if they would be violating the eVENT patent with this since Gore has patented such a method long before BHA did. They recently did it again btw and the patent mentioned specifically shelters and clothing. So I would not be surprised if Gore will come with something that equals (or outperforms) eVENT. So I guess it's best not to rule out the competition just because it's Gore, …
About that $50K, I know of at least one institution that swims in mony and has a definite interest in testing such materials: the DOD. I wouldn't be surprised if one of their test labs have comparable data on some of these fabrics.
Someone has a phone number of Phil Gibson?Feb 28, 2007 at 4:30 pm #1380480
@ouzelLocale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
I'd bet DOD has the data as well but, given that they're in bed with corporate America, I wouldn't count on seeing any of it anytime soon. How about we take up a collection and commission Dr J, et al to give us some real world numbers?
What say, Ryan? What, if anything, would it take to get you
ginned up for a mission of real value to the community? Seriously?Feb 28, 2007 at 5:06 pm #1380486
Excellent article. Sure, it's rather obvious that it's authors believe that eVent is superior to all other available fabrics in cold, morate-humidity conditions, but they also admit that they have no scientific, real-world testing to prove it. They merely explain what was a very confusing development until now: why eVent appeared, took over the headlines, then disappeared. I, for one, am happy that BPL reported on this situation and went through some of the alternatives and how hard it will be to determine their real-world performance without in-depth research.
Too bad I never got around to buying the high-dollar eVent stuff. Whatever pieces I didn't use, I could probably sell at a profit :).Mar 1, 2007 at 8:51 am #1380566
Tom, the DOD isn't in bed with corporate America, they are corporate America. The DOD buys domestic products whenever possible; and that circulates dollars around our economy, including a nice share for me.
I often thought that the DOD would be interested in Dr. J's record un-resupplied trek in Alaska. It has definite applicability to our SOF and Ranger Batts; who sometimes go un-resupplied for many days.
But I digress.. the DOD would be interested in an eVENT type material, or something better than goretex. Thanks to Bens comment I am now wondering if that Montbell fabric is a porous laminate, or a post goretex-patent copy? Can someone get to the bottom of this?Mar 1, 2007 at 11:27 am #1380586
@danepackerLocale: Mojave Desert
The W.L. Gore Co. is fairly large and its resesrch is well funded. It would suprise me if Gore is not feverishly working on a better oliophobic coating (as eVent did) which will NOT absorb vapor (as its present PU coating of the PTFE layer does).
SO I figure it's only a matter of time until Gore announces a more breathable waterproof laminate.
I own a new Cabela's rain parka in the Pac Lite version of Gore-Tex and it appears to be more breathable than my 8 year old REI Gore-Tex. tricot laminate parka. That shows Gore is not standing still. In fact my Pac Lite is considered Gen III, Gen I being the Pac Lite with dots as a lining coating instead of a continuous coating like the Gen III fabrics have.
With the $$$ Gore has for research and the lure of even more $$$$$ of profit if they can equal eVent's breathability you can bet it's likely that Gore will make the needed breakthrough.Mar 1, 2007 at 12:19 pm #1380594
I am currently testing a paclite jacket made from the new version of paclite. I've only had it for a few days I will be sure to post my impressions after I've gotten to use it more.
They are definitely working to become competitive in the waterproof breathable market again. Check out the MHW Typhoon jacket for instance. I can't think of a single Goretex jacket (paclite xcr or classic) from last season with as many features and a $199 price tag.
I am suspicious that XCR might become far less common over then next few years, maybe ever just footwear. As light weight gear has become more the rule the over-built/expensive nature of 3 layer fabrics has become a liability rather than a selling point. They may finally be ready to accept that the $99 rain jacket paired with any number of soft shells or wind shirts is a better system (in both function and cost).
The marketing spin they try to put on the whole thing will be very interesting to see.Mar 1, 2007 at 1:26 pm #1380602
if not mistaken, Breeze Dry-tec is a microporous coating, not a membrane. A bubbler test seems to show that it is air permeable.
to my knowledge, Gore already has such a technology, even for more than 10 years. For some reason they have never used it. I know they're still examining this technology but it's not clear if we will see it in any gear anytime soon.Mar 1, 2007 at 2:53 pm #1380608
Tom, i think BDT is NOT a microporous coating. MB has a somewhat similar named microporous coating called Dri Light Tec. It is air permeable though, just as you stated.Mar 1, 2007 at 7:56 pm #1380655
@fluffinreach-comLocale: no. california
hilleberg shows us a solo tent at 2 and 14.. that's under 3 pounds (sorta ..), and the poor thing has 2 layers, one big honk'n pole plus 4 little ones in the corners. if it was a normal 2 hoop tent, it would prob come out a few ounces lighter and be much better looking.
it would have to be a very VERY trick single wall tent to be as comfortable over a long grind as a double wall. that space between the fly and body really gives a sweet buffer of protection from the elements.
if there was a lighter tent that looked as flexible, i'd be on it in a heartbeat, but for now, my next toy is a hilleberg.
peter has a paclite gen 1 parka and if he puts it on even in the summer, the world seems a colder place. it's not very friendly, but it is hella durable and it's paid for itself many times over. that being as it is, my 2 layer consumer grade goretex parka is always the choice if i grabbing one out of the closet. methinks single wall tech still has some ways to go.
peter v.Mar 1, 2007 at 9:06 pm #1380658
@danepackerLocale: Mojave Desert
Peter, I'm guessing you're referring to the Akto solo tent. It's going to be my winter/spring solo tent when I get the funds together. (And my wife quits accepting wedding invitations which require me to write large gift checks.)SHEESH!
My guess is that winter tents (light mountaineering tents excepted)will always work better with double walls. Maybe newer winter tents will have double walls with a waterproof breathable fly to reduce some of the frost buildup beneath the fly. So there may still be a place for eVent, etc. flys.Mar 1, 2007 at 11:04 pm #1380675
MontBell's Breeze Dry Tec laminate is air permeable — similar to eVENT, it too dispenses with PU coating. MontBell has used this laminate on its "Peak Shell" wp/b jacket. I own one, and it is very, very breathable. MontBell has also just recently applied this wp/b laminate to its single wall wp/b tents — as stated in my post above.
I wish BPL will import one and do a comparison test against Bibler, Integral Designs, Sierra Designs' Assailant! Ryan and Wilt?Mar 2, 2007 at 1:28 am #1380681
I would be pleased to hear the Montbell tents were leading the way technically speaking, by using an eVENT type fabric.. I have read the differences over and over (eVENT vs Gore-type) and I think it is sinking in; eVENT has no solid lining, Gore-types do; except the old extruded membrane naked goretex which no one uses due to pore clogging.
Anyway, Id like to see that comparison also. If the Montbell tents perform like eVENT they would be the cheapest in that category; less than BD/Bibler and ID.Mar 2, 2007 at 2:19 am #1380688
why do you think that Breeze Dry-tec is not microporous? And if not microporous, how can it be air permeable?
To quote what Montbell itself is saying about Breeze Dry-tec
<< Breeze Dry-Tec is an innovative new MontBell waterproof/breathable material, and one of the only air-permeable waterproof fabrics available today.
Waterproof/breathable materials generally consist of a micro-porous laminate with a non-porous polyurethane coating. This means that all vapors that will pass through the fabric must first be absorbed by and passed through the polyurethane coating and then through the micro-porous laminate and out of the jacket.
With Breeze Dry-Tec, MontBell was able to manipulate the size and consistency of the pores, eliminating the non-porous coating and drastically increase the ventilation of the material. >>Mar 2, 2007 at 2:38 am #1380693
Tom, my apologies. i should have used some emphasis for clarity. it's readily apparent to me now why my words weren't clearer.
first off, i was responding to your precise wording with my precise wording.
here they are again with emphasis:
if not mistaken, Breeze Dry-tec is a microporous coating [emphasis mine], not a membrane."
my words (with emphasis added this time):
>>"Tom, i think BDT is NOT a microporous coating."
I didn't say that it wasn't microporous, but rather that it is not a "microporous coating. In fact,MB has a pic that clearly shows that BDT has pores (so do laminates, but then you already know this). MB also states that their secret is that they maintain a more consistent pore size in their BDT vs. competitors.
However, BDT differs their Dri Light Tec coating.
BDT is a laminate (or at least it is compared to laminates and appears so in my Peak shell).
I hope this clears up the intent of my prev. Post.
Many thanks for asking me to clarify. I'm finding that is often the case that this is required. My fault entirely.Mar 2, 2007 at 3:26 am #1380694
my guess is that while eVENT currently is definitely better than the different Gore-tex variations being used in clothing, this is not necesarily the case with the air permeable gore-tex used in bivy's and tents. I wouldn't rule these tents out just because they're gore-tex based.Mar 2, 2007 at 8:13 am #1380720
this is not about you or me having done something wrong so you really don't have to apologize.
After reading your last post, I googled a bit to find out and I found out that "Breeze Dry-tec" and "coating" are two terms which never seem to being used together in one sentence. So I guess you are correct.
Reason for my assumption that Breeze Dry-tec was a coating, was my interpretation of the term laminate. If not mistaken a laminate consist of two or more layers bonded together. For me this doesn't exclude coatings since I thought 3-layer constructions with a coating in the middle were also laminates (and Breeze-Drytec in the Peak jacket is a 3 layer construction).
Now I see that the term laminate is often used as a synonim for films or mebranes while these are technically not the same. When a membrane is glued to a layer of textile, then you get a laminate. A membrane in itself is not a laminate. So that's why, with English not being my mother tongue, I never made the connection between laminate and membrane.
But in the end the conclusion seems to be that Breeze Dry-tec is a membrane available in 2- and 3-layer constructions (made by who ?). Makes me wonder, is the 3-layer Patagonia H2No also a film (the 2,5 is definetely a coating since it's based on Entrant DT)?Mar 2, 2007 at 9:35 am #1380748
PJ, Tom, et. al.
For a good write up of the above, please click HERE.Mar 2, 2007 at 10:45 am #1380766
Tom, i NEVER would have guessed that English wasn't your native tongue. YOU WRITE so well. Me,…all my languages are so bad that i say that i don't have a FIRST language!!!
I think you have brought out a good distinction b/t laminates & coatings. I think of coatings as being deposited in some fashion (e.g., spraying, etc.) a little bit at a time, whereas a laminate is a single intact layer/entity that is bonded to another layer.
The bottom line is that i know very little about fabrics and i am sure that you know a whole lot more than i about this area.
It's quite clear to me that it was just a minor misunderstanding regarding terminology and that you have a very precise understanding of the nature of these fabric technologies.
Hmm…English isn't your first language…WOW!! You sure had me fooled. Your English seems better than mine. I greatly admire fluent multi-lingual individuals.Mar 2, 2007 at 10:47 am #1380768
Ben, thanks. I remember reading that Thread with your Post in it. Good explanation. Thanks for reminding me.
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