PHILMONT LESSONS…

Thank you very much for posting a review of your trip with insight. Greatly appreciated for us going to Philmont in 2013. If they are against the turkey bag method of cooking, were they proposing you do the "philmont" cooking style of dumping stuff into the big pots? My photos from philmont 30 years ago shows me with the 2 big pots strapped to the bottom of my bag and my sleeping bag clam shelled inside of them.

Again, thanks for the posting

no longer require crews to "gut sump" or super compact trash as it is considered hazing.

I'm no friend of hazing … pretty much on the zero tolerance end of that.

BUT … that is a sad situation. Gut sumping is quite outside the everyday "town experience" but I don't consider it hazing if the reasons are well explained and everyone participates (ranger and advisers first). Trash compacting? …. our scouts treated it as a skills contest and enjoyed demonstrating the skill when we got home.

WRT the TB cooking method, our ranger had us use the traditional Philmont method while he was with us. After that, we used our TBs. I believe most will find that the Rangers are required to teach/demonstrate the Philmont way but will have different approaches/attitudes on how their crews have to cook.

As I read somewhere, there are principles and then there are techniques. Philmont principles are completely locked down and must be adhered to for everyone's well-being. These would apply to bear mitigation, crew integrity, camp configuration, etc. (BTW, we saw many crews spread out over 500-1k meters. We just shook our heads as we passed them…) Techniques, however, enter more flexible areas where crews may use what works best for them. These would be how you cook, climb steep ascents, distribute food or crew gear, etc.

A couple other lessons for the cadre…
1. Larabars are hideous! Our ranger warned us but I thought I would be the tough guy… My reaction after taking a bite was the subject of conversation for many days afterwards. I wouldn't even feed them to our burro!
2. Latrines. We had a scout who seemed to have reservations about using them. We discovered on day three that he had yet to go "number two" on the trail. This could have been a significant health issue. Glad we discovered it… Just be wary of your boys…

Thanks Dan, this is great stuff. It sounds like your itinerary is very similar to, if not the same as, ours (#21) so the info about routes and times is very helpful.

We also have an overnight at Shaefers Pass and were thinking about making the trip over to ToT for sunrise. A friend suggested to go as far as Shaefers Peak – it is much closer, a couple hundred feet higher higher and has nearly the same view.

Getting a pre-sunrise start for hiking into HQ is a VERY good idea if only to avoid a mid-day death march down tooth ridge. My only trip over the ridge started from North Fork Urraca campsite, 1200 feet below Shaefers Pass. A route finding delay and too much time on the tooth resulted in reaching HQ at mid afternoon. UGH!

Jay, et al-
We hiked Trek 21 and can share some more info on the various camps. WRT Schaeffer's Pass camp (we camped in #8 on the saddle), eat dinner at N Fork Uracca for lunch and then have lunch for dinner. You've probably already seen this elsewhere. I personally would not recommend trying to hike out to the ToT for sunrise. The Tooth Ridge trail is pretty rocky with numerous false summits. Many portions are just scree and perfect for twisting an ankle in the dark. There's a reason why many call the hike in to base over the Tooth the "Trail of Tears"… We passed many crews that were leaving Clark's Fork for the hike in. That would seem to be a very long, hot day.

Trek 21 favorites… Bear Caves #4 (north end of the meadow), Hunting Lodge, and Pueblano camps; hike over Window/Cathedral Rock into Hidden Valley; spar pole climbing; Pistol shooting at Ponil…

BTW… We took photos of each camp's layout sign as we entered. Found that this saved us from having to send someone back to verify locations of water, bear cables, latrines, etc. I was kind of surprised to see how large some of the sites were from one end to the other.

Another helpful item… We purchased 12 2-cup Glad plastic bowls (left lids at home) and 12 Lexan spoons ($0.50 @ Walmart) for crew food service. Kept them all together in our pots and found that this helped meal prep/clean up as well as maybe some crew unity…

Already wish that I was going back…

Nice – we leave in 18 days!

Any lessons learned on the burros? Did you have more than one burro?

Jay-
You will have one burro. Recommend assigning two scouts for each day you have the burro. We did this to minimize the confusion and keep the burro straight on who his handlers were. Our burro, "Timmy", was a good, gentle animal although we heard many stories of folks getting pushed around, stepped on and kicked. The best advice we got was to just be kind and loving rather than pushy or forceful. I think some of the crews tended to try to show who's the boss rather than just lead them along…

They have one speed… uphill or down… one speed. Timmy's speed was slower than our hiking speed so you may need to plan for some extra travel time between Miranda and Pueblano and Ponil.

We managed to get a couple of oranges from Baldy Town and used them to lead/tease him along the trail. We gave him half in the a.m. and then one of the handlers walked a few yards ahead with the other half. Once we finished the day, he got the second half.

It was a rare and good experience for the boys although he didn't carry very much.

The guys were wondering about how much of their gear the burro would carry.

I think we'll be good on this part – we have one youth who is an accomplished horseman and one who raises a few cattle. Neither are forceful/bossy types and are pretty good at moving animals around. Strangely, the burro is one of the parts the whole crew is really excited about.

Having specific people each day be the handlers is a good suggestion.

The wranglers will give you some guidance on what the burro can/can't carry. Basically, they can carry replaceable items such as tents and food just in case he decides to run away. We had Timmy carry most of our food, a couple of tents and our rain fly. Not much to be honest but it was the experience the boys got with catching, harnessing, loading and caring for a burro that meant the most.

Always more comes to mind as I write…

One of my fellow advisors brought along 12 leather circles (~3.5" diam) for our boys to brand at Ponil. This was pretty popular with the boys as most boots are not leather. One branded his Crocs, a couple branded ball caps, a couple more branded their bandanas (doesn't survive the washing machine as I discovered…doh) Recommend you also have some 550 or leather cord so they can tie them to their packs…

If they have you leaving base camp for Rayado around 1000 or 1100, try to move that up earlier. We got to Rayado at 1100 and then had an hour or so of activities there before lunch and hitting the trail. Hiking through Olympia in the middle of the afternoon was just plain miserable. You have about 1.5 hours of hiking to get to Rayado River…

Best wishes!

Thanks for the lessons – these are very helpful. I'll be doing itinerary 34 with an arrival of July 24.

Did you have any surprise dry camps, or was water as accessible as you had expected going into your trek?

We encountered no significant surprises on Trek 21… A couple issues worth mentioning…

1. We photographed the water board in logistics before departure as others have recommended. Some sites that were listed as "ample" consisted of about 1 ltr/minute trickle from a spring. Enough for everyone, just not what we anticipated…

2. Recommend you always verify the status of spigot supplies at staffed camps before drinking. We arrived at Abreu and promptly filled up from the spigot when a staffer told us that we needed to use our micropur (after a few of us had already consumed a liter or more!) We learned our lesson and always asked first…

Each staffed camp uses a chlorination process to purify their sources and tests the water frequently. We just happened to catch them between testing and posting the "purification required" signage. Some of the systems function better than others so just be aware. (BTW, no one had any adverse affects but some consternation…)

"2. Latrines. We had a scout who seemed to have reservations about using them. We discovered on day three that he had yet to go "number two" on the trail. This could have been a significant health issue. Glad we discovered it… Just be wary of your boys…"

This is worrying about nothing. When eating a diet of nothing but highly refined crap, there isnt much left, ie, no fiber at all. I always go before departure, and might only do a #2 once in 4-5 days on the trail myself.

When you have to go , there isnt any stopping it.

MB-
I generally agree with you but had read a story of an advisor that was not used to the processed food, developed an impacted bowel and had to medivac'd to ABQ for emergency surgery…

That would ruin your day.
Maybe Philmont should put some metamucil in food drops

Agreed… believe they hide it in Larabars…

I just got home from our Trek. We had a VERY NEGATIVE experience with Miner's Park. I ended up griping at the Camp Director (Cassie) for about 15 minutes in front of 2 other crews who were also just as upset.

In a nutshell… the Miner's Park cabin staff refused to give us a time to climb… in fact they encouraged us to just forget about climbing and go on to camp. This infuriated me. After waiting from 8:30 AM to 3:00 PM we were about to get our turn (finally) and they shut down the whole operation because there was one lightning strike on the west side of Trail Peak. As it turns out, the first slots of the day had been given to the previous days' crews that had been rained out the day before. If they keep doing that, they will always be unable to handle a day's crew load (which is only 8 crews).

In addition to this, they didn't have the climbing tower operating at the Miner's Park cabin because, according the the CD, they were understaffed. Mind you there was one staffer sitting on the porch doing nothing – he was responsible for giving the porch talk to the 8 crews a day that come through, and there was another staffer doing absolutely nothing – he was on standby to help the 3 or 4 crews a day who come through there for food pickup.

Also, at Crooked Creek they couldn't do the woodcutting program because their ONE ax was broken, and at Crater Lake they couldn't do the log cutting program because their ONE cross-cut saw was broken.

I'm not sure why there isn't a backup ax and saw at these camps… it just seems silly not to have backup tools in case one gets broken… especially if it means a whole program is scrapped.

Don't get me wrong, we had a great time, but there are some definite management issues that need to be corrected. I'm curious to know why Philmont isn't more concerned about and/or able to deal with these issues that affect program activities.

Mark-
Sounds like your crew saw some of the same stuff that we did. I.E. Fly fishing rods hanging on the wall at Hunting Lodge but couldn't be used because no one had provided the necessary flies/tackle.

As I understand the staffers are organized as one dedicated to "the porch", one dedicated to the radio in the cabin and then the third is running the program. Extra staffers could have just been "porch crashing" or visiting from other camps but I share many of your frustrations. I assume that you guys put this on your evaluations?

Seems like the management needs to understand that they're going to kill Philmont's reputation if they don't make meaningful changes… As my boys said, coming from Colorado, we don't need trails or mountains. They went for the program activities that aren't really available here at home. If the program isn't working, then we'll find other venues…

BTW, one senior staffer confided that Philmont generates enough revenue to fund the other HA bases. Maybe some could be dedicated to fixing some of the issues close to home?

Hey Dan,

Many thanks for the report, it will surely help us plan for our trek next year. Regarding your para 4., dust and wind. Is that to say individuals are allowed to sleep in the bare ground? I believe policy use to be a traditional double wall tent, or similiar shelter, was required?

I'm considering taking a tarptent w/ a tyvek sheet for a ground cloth. Thanks.

Cheers,
JG

Unbelievable! No back up tools? What about Be Prepared?… As for the rained out crews, if they get the slots for the next morning, how do they then "catch up" with the rest of their program? Are they not late for the next place on their agenda?…guess I can't figure out how that ia able to occur? My thought is you got rained out, onward to the next program for the next day…not that you hang around the same area to complete that activity and then head out to the next place…or am I thinking completely wrong.

Sorry to hear that you had difficulty on what should have been a completely free hassle trip… Maybe they need to send people to Disney/Stew Leonards's for lessons in customer service…

I can't say if tarp tents or floorless shelters would be authorized as we did not "press to test" this issue. I suspect that it will likely be up to your specific Ranger. My impression is that the Rangers are more likely to hold fast for scouts and avoid confrontation with the adults. Sorry that I can't provide a more definitive answer but suspect some of the folks monitoring this thread may be able to chime in…

Philmont staff are very nervous of hantavirus and will tell you to only use enclosed tents. No sleeping in the dirt. Mind you, we didn't try because I advised one of my scouts to add a floor with screen to his homemade tarp tent before we left for the Ranch. He did, and the ranger loved it. And it still weighed less than a pound.

Also no bivy sacks or bear burritos. And no hammocks to protect the trees.