The CAFFIN tents come!

[Keith Bassett]

I love sewing tarps, but this is a bit more than I can sew.

So I will be saving up. Good on you!

[Roger Caffin]

> What! A tent with no DAC involvement? That has to be against some international law.
Chuckle. But 10 – 15 years ago one would have said the same about 'a tent with no Easton poles'. There was Easton, and there were the rest trailing behind.

> Easton may not have that much experience designing tents,
Ah well, but they make some good carbon fibre. And that I think is where a lot of the tent pole market is heading today.

As my experience has shown (to me at least), with the appropriate redesign to handle the change in material, carbon fibre now replaces even 7075 T9 at the high-quality UL end of the market. (OK, I am biased!) Granted, for the novice market a softer aluminium might be still a good idea, to handle the inevitable prangs and mistakes – maybe.

Comment: it may not sound all that glamorous, but the continuing advances in fabric and fibre technology even today are still quite exciting. Compared to the cotton japara fabric of my youth …

Cheers
PS: I am still reading all the comments about dimensions.

[Bob Gross]

Roger, how long will it be before you have lost all of your objectiveness?

I mean, if those royalty checks are slow to flow, will you become the pitch-man for the CAFFIN-O-MATIC TENT? Will we start to see late night television commercials with your smiling face?

–B.G.–

[Roger Caffin]

Hi Daniel

> condensation is often an issue when there is no wind etc. If I was inches from a wet
> wall my bag would get wet.
> I believe your tents have mesh along the bottom so that does help however.

I most certainly agree. This is a key point. When your bag rubs against the wall it will get wet, but I dealt with that problem ages ago. The fly itself is a long way from the bucket edge of the groundsheet, and condensation does not transfer. A diagram will help.

The groundsheet bucket wall is about 150 mm high. Above that, going up to the fly, is the (pale blue dashes) netting wall shown by A. The netting leans back so that water does not run down it from the fly onto the groundsheet. That means that the width of the fly is noticeably larger than the width of the groundsheet. If the groundsheet is 1100 mm wide, the fly is more like 1260 mm wide. The extra volume inside the tent is significant.

What this looks like in practice is something like this.

Note that this shows V7, which was just a bit too big for good wind resistance. The current design has advanced to V10, with the top dropping from a peak of 1100 mm down to about 950 mm. Not a lot of changes, just small refinements.

The big question is whether to go for palatial luxury with the extra weight, or for a lighter and slightly more compact and stable design. Comments invited.

Cheers

[Tad Englund]

Roger- about widths. I would need/use a tent like this when hiking with my wife or one of the kids and my wife demands a wide pad (for comfort) and I'm 6'2" so I need some length. I also use a large/wide pad so the pad heights match up. We usually take NeoAirs unless it is shoulder season and then its the Expeds (true 25 inchers).

Given that, I would want the inside dimensions to be at least 1400mm -/+ in width and the length to be 2000mm +/- or more. This is of course doesn't include the vestibules.

I can see that sizing issues can be a make or break deal for success.

I'm excited to see what you come up with- I'd be happy to be one of your testers!

[Mike W]

Congratulations on getting your tents to market!

I do agree that they sound a bit narrow for us North Americans (large fellows). My Big Agnes UL2 is 52 inches wide across the top and 42 inches at the foot end. Unless you are trying to limit your market to "intimate companions" only, I'd suggest adding a bit of width. My son and I occasionally share the Copper Spur and the 52 inch width is about as tight as we could endure. We are both 6 ft tall and 190+ pounds.

In comparison, my Fly Creek UL1 is 42 inches wide across the top end. I can't imagine trying to squeeze another person into that width.

[Ken Thompson]

Aren't those pre bent poles a bit fiddly to insert?

[John Nausieda]

The Caffin Coffin name game is unfortunate and too much like Melville.I think the Tunnel Vision Summer , and Tunnel Vision Winter, are more like it.

[Miguel Arboleda]

From the look of Roger's photo of the V7 interior I think that the width is plenty wide enough for anyone who uses the tent, including "bigger" folk. I really don't see why I, who am not "big", should carry all that extra unnecessary weight just so some bigger people can live in palatial luxury. This is BPL, after all, and I'd like to keep the weight down as much as possible, while still accommodating basic spatial needs of bigger folk. Remember, for anyone who is smaller (and there are smaller folk out there, probably just as many as bigger folk), especially women, all that extra width weight adds up, and one of the defining factors of Roger's designs is their light weight. Please think of the smaller folk, too, and try to bow to a compromise. You can't have one design and only design for the biggest and strongest. In checking about 10 different tunnel tent designs around the Web, from a number of different manufacturers, 52cm to 53cm width of the inner seems to be about average.

Also, it would be nice to, for once, not only cater to the American market.

[Robert H]

>Also, it would be nice to, for once, not only cater to the American market.
A big plus one from me.

[Jeffs Eleven]

+1 Miguel.

Call it 48"- two 25s squeeze/ or/ two 20s have a little room.

Name it the Easton CaffinE. (caffeine)

mmmm…coffee

[a b]

Congratulations Roger!
From what i can discern here on BPL you are a thoughtful and practical man who uses scientific method and logic to design and test things.
It is nice to see something created by you get recognition.
I have a question.
Assuming the tents sell well, are there any plans on introducing your Mountain Poncho Design?

In answer to the post above regarding pre-bent poles and the ease of assembly.. I had a Sierra Designs Divine Light back in the 90's that used Easton aluminum poles shock corded with pre-bent joints between the segments.
It was quite easy to assemble the Divine light as the tent itself was sewn in an arc.
The arc of the poles slipped into the tent sleeves like putting a glove on a hand: There was a little tension at the half way point but then the poles would just slide into place in the terminal grommet with ease.

It is really great to see a well thought out and executed design make the "big leagues".
Wish you all the best mate!

PS. The "Caffin Baffin" in honor of baffin island comes to mind as a great name. :)

[Bradley Danyluk]

Regarding width, it's probably important to consider the design goals of the tent first and foremost.

There are plenty of big, unstable, heavy tents out there.

If adding width would make your tents even moderately less stable and moderately heavier, then I think they have a bit less of a reason to exist in the marketplace.

I say this all rather hesitantly, because I like a bit of extra room, too. Especially with another person.

If they would still be lighter than just about anything else and still stable "enough" in particularily terrible conditions (which is really the goal of the tents, right?) then maybe it is worth considering at least a bit of a compromise. I'm not sure.
But the stability is a very important point in consideration.

To me, the solution that makes the most sense is for the summer tent to perhaps be a bit larger, but the winter tent your normal 42" or thereabouts. In the winter survivability trumps everything, and weight just below that. In the summer skin-out weights are significantly lighter anyway, so a few more grams on a larger tent could make sense.

[Jim Colten]

Congrats on finding a manufacturer and best wishes on the outcome.

I'm not so likely to be a buyer because my camping is rarely in places exposed enough to experience winds it's designed for (at those winds I'm worried about being crushed by falling trees!) but I'll wait to see the cost.

But I'll still add my two cents worth about size:

* mountaineers will value storm worthiness very highly, roominess be d*mned
* ditto for far north tundra travelers
* ditto for backpackers who strongly dislike bailing on a trip due to weather
* as Miguel said, smaller folks will value the reduced weight of a narrower tent
* tent-mates who want to be physically close won't care so much about the 1100mm width but I fear that Roger's design iterations have all happened in an environment where that's usually the case. I know he often mentions the warmth advantages of being together under a shared quilt.
* I have slept in tents 84 inches long (about 2" short of Roger's 2200mm) and found them "just adequate". I'm 72 inches tall when upright but 76 inches long when prone (lay down with legs straight and relax with your toes just touching a wall then place a book next to the top of your head and measure the distance). Add twice the thickness of your sleeping bag to that.
* his generous vestibules on each end should handle gear storage and provide a sense of more length
* folks with even very mild claustrophobia express discomfort in small tents
* I imagine there's an expectation of some minimum sales potential before the manufacturer says yes to the final project

In the end, it'll be up to Roger and the manufacturer to agree or not agree on a final design.

[Sam Farrington]

Congratulatons, Roger. You picked the one company that can provide good quality, strong carbon poles and alloy elbows without going overboard on the weight.

Someone asked about 1+ size. For me, that's about the 41", and thanks for the review and diagram of the 'bucket' floor attachment.

Already, from the comments on this thread, the pressure to make the tents wider can be felt. That will make them heavier. No more 1.2 kilograms. Hope you can resist this pressure. Maybe a + model for larger Northamericans would be a good compromise.
Good luck. Hope you get a lot of enjoyment from this venture.

[Jeffs Eleven]

I'm glad that I can eat what I want and get a tent made around whatever dimensions I may be.

Eat it non-Americans!!

Hangs head in shame

EDIT- Samuel- that wasn't directed at you!!

[Roger Caffin]

> Aren't those pre bent poles a bit fiddly to insert?
Nope. No trouble at all.
They slide in and out of the silnylon sleeves very easily in fact. I think that you can blame the slippery surface of the silicon coating for that. Virtually no abrasion inside the sleeves over 6 years use either.

The only time I have any trouble is when there has been a cold snap in the night (-10 C for instance) and a wet pole gets frozen to the inside of the sleeve. But this is not a problem in practice. Under those conditions I wear gloves (they are essential for survival!) and just briefly wiggle the sleeve over the pole. It turns out that the ice has very little bond to the silnylon. Then they come out easily.

Cheers

[Roger Caffin]

Hi Bob

> Roger, how long will it be before you have lost all of your objectiveness?
A very long time indeed.
The contract does not include a royalty. There is a small licence fee for the design.

> Will we start to see late night television commercials with your smiling face?
Sounds like a post-midnight horror show to me. :-)

Cheers

[Roger Caffin]

Hi Matthew

> Assuming the tents sell well, are there any plans on introducing your Mountain Poncho Design?

You know, I had not even thought about that one. Oh well, I am open to offers.

Cheers

[Warren Greer]

Roger, thanks for all you do for this community. It's about time you get recognized for some of your designs and contributions.

BTW, guess you can't use the accronym "TT" for TunnelTent since Henry's already got that covered!

[Bob Gross]

"The contract does not include a royalty."

That's a shame, but I understand that you Aussies aren't really big on royalty, anyway. Maybe they could make you a duke or something. Roger, Duke of Tunnels.

–B.G.–

[D G]

Hi Roger,
Thanks for the pic and diagram, they really describe the width well (I'm a visual person).

I had not seen a pic of your tents in a while and did not realize the mesh on the side extended that far up. Also, I was not aware that the side walls get wider for a bit as you go up the wall. That really changes things! I'm used to single wall tents that immediately slope inwards as you go up.

I think the relatively narrow footprint width could actually work quite well with that design.

Cheers.

Dan

[Paul McLaughlin]

Roger – congratulations or as they say in your neck of the woods, Good on ya, mate!

I think your length is fine, given that your ends are vertical or nearly so. I think your width is narrow, though. For two guys in two bags, my experience is that at 48" we are touching the walls, even in a tent with very step sides. Now I understand your construction, so I think the 48" (about 1200 mm) would work with that configuration, giving usable floor width roughly equivalent to a BD lighthouse which is 52" with steep but still inward-sloping walls. I know that most of your use of your tents is with your lovely wife in the cozy comfort of a double quilt – have you ever shared one (the tent I mean, not the quilt) with a 6-2, 200 lb guy?

[Roger Caffin]

Hi Paul

> have you ever shared one (the tent I mean, not the quilt) with a 6-2, 200 lb guy?
Errr – no! :-)

The difference the outwards sloping walls make is not obvious until you actually see it in practice. We fill that narrow gap between the edge of the mat and the outwards sloping groundsheet wall with stuff-sacks of gear or food. Just gear or food bags which would normally sit in your pack or at the foot of the tent. That means I don't even touch the side wall of the groundsheet much, and the stuff sacks also act as a side wall of insulation when it is cold. It does mean that my mat is touching my wife's mat.

Unfortunately I don't have a good photo which shows this. Lots of photos of the doorway and me cooking, lots of my wife in the tent eating dinner, but her quilt and mine usually mask the gear at the side.

Anyhow, everyone's comments are appreciated.

Cheers

[Paul McLaughlin]

I think a good idea would be to get some folks together and some sleeping bags and have them lie down in the tent and see how they like it. Market research, if you will. Always a good idea to get some independent opinions on the product during the design phase. What works perfectly for you and your uses may need to be tweaked a bit to suit the larger needs of the market. I can tell you that I and my usual backcountry companions would not be comfortable with our mats touching each other – we need a good 6" in between for elbow room – literally elbow room!

[Author]

Posts