are straps necessary on a quilt?

I use an Arc Alpinist below its 20F rating, and I'd only want to do without straps in temps where a much lighter bag would actually be the more efficient option. My thinking is, if you really want to squeeze the most efficiency out of the bag's weight, then straps are good. Otherwise the bag might be too lofty for the temps, or it's cut wider than it needs to be.

Webbing straps don't make since to me.
If you're going to have anything, an adjustable elastic strap would work much better.
That little bit of extra room to move around makes it much less restrictive while still being able to keep the drafts out.

I think a lot depends on how you sleep. If you are a die-hard toss-and-turner, straps may be necessary. I tend to turn over 3 or 4 times a night, but I wake up to do so allowing me to adjust the quilt to maintain a comfortable sleep. For me and my homemade quilt, I find the drawstring at the neck of the quilit enough to keep it pulled securely around me.

Stephen,

I have an Arc Specialist and would take the straps off right now if I wasn't thinking about selling it. I find the straps cumbersome and restrictive. I toss and turn in my sleep and sleep on my side much of the night.

Here's a technique I use for strapless quilting. If you mimic a bat and hold the quilt up over you like wings (with your feet in the foot pocket holding the bottom in place) and then tuck an roll side to side a bit (with some tension on the quilt lengthwise) the quilt will be tucked in very nice. This becomes second nature after a while and is redone each time you shift. This creates an equally effective seal without the straight jacket feel of straps.

I did this one night and looked cross at those straps every time thereafter.

Ray-way has the draft stopper sides option which is for a similar technique. As a matter of fact they are better because with my quilt about 7-10 inches of down and baffles are wasted under me. I'd say 3 inches is the most I would like my down and baffles to wrap under me, then 2 inches of plain fabric for tucking.

Hope that helps. J

Thanks for the info. Jhaura, would you be willing to sell yours anytime soon? I am very interested, what size do you own?

Seems like you and I are going through many of the same decisions, I'm looking at Jacks 'R' Better and other quilts too.
If you aren't too unhappy with you'r new bivy, that takes care of some of the strap vs. no strap issues.

Straps on a quilt? Like most other things, not necessary all the time, but very nice to have when you need them.

I have an Arc Alpinist that has two straps, each one about 3/4 to 1 inch wide and very thin (ribbon-like). Each of the two straps joins to the opposing side of the quilt by means of a very thin wafer-like flat fastener. Very light.

I also have a Fanatic Fringe synthetic quilt that does not have any straps at all, although I have considered adding some based on my experience with the Arc Alpinist.

In sub-freezing weather, especially with drafts present, the ribbons on the Arc do a fine job of keeping its sides from escaping their tucked-in position. Warmer weather means I just dispense with fastening the straps. They're so light and unobstrusive that it's like they're not there.

Can easily secure the straps, whether both or just one, as tight or loose as feels comfortable. Have not experienced a sense of being in a straight-jacket when the straps are fastened, but then I usually fasten the straps just secure enough to keep the Arc's sides from wandering loose when temperatures drop and drafts come around.

As for the Frantic Fringe quilt, the lack of straps makes the job of maintaining a draft-free existence quite a bit more challenging than does the Arc with its straps.

A light bivy used with either quilt helps a great deal to keep drafts at bay. But even with a bivy, the straps are still nice to have available, particularly with very cold temperatures and wind.

I understand some folks may fasten the straps on a quilt around a sleeping pad to keep the two aligned and to help keep positioned between the two. I haven't ever tried that method, but suppose that a straight-jacket sensation might result from strapping yourself between the quilt and pad.

JRS

I have 2 No Sniveller quilts. In my hammock drafts are not a problem. I can move around and the quilt just works. When I sleep on the ground drafts can be a problem. The No Sniveller doesn’t have straps so I use a Montbell Hat Clip. It has a thin elastic band and can be moved wherever it is needed. I like to have one under my waist. My arms and legs are free to move so it does not feel confining. The clips are smooth and flat and have never bothered me. It also keeps my hat from blowing away. I bought 2 of them from the Boulder store. I seem to recall the cost being about 5 dollars.

The smaller the quilt, and/or the colder the temp, the more you will want straps. I use my ghost down to around 45F without the straps clipped in. Below that I am using the straps.

[Note: the following is merely my own personal experience and musings on the subject at hand. It is NOT intended to disparage anyone else's experience. In fact, since quilts are so popular with some many very experienced UL-ers, I have to say i must be missing something in my own personal objections based upon my VERY limited experience in this area. So, please read the following with this background in mind.]

I've tried the quilt approach in other than hot summer nighttime temps and didn't like it due to the entry of cold air upon movement. Reheating that air with body heat and valuable calories just doesn't seem to make sense to me.

I need to make clear that i sleep like a dead man, in other words, i rarely move when sleeping (on my back), maybe just 1-2 time per night a minor readjustment is needed to restore some circulation to areas that had been under the pressure of body weight.

Now, i don't use top-bags either, but that's just because i'm unfamiliar with any but the GG, BA, and some SD ones – none of which seemed to meet my needs at the time a few yrs ago when i was beginning to lighten up.

So, why don't quilt users use top bags in colder weather? Is it that the top bags available just don't meet their needs (fit, temp rating, no zipper, need for a special sleeping pad, etc)? Or, is it that last couple of tenths of an ounce (or a bit more???) in weight that is being saved by eliminating the bottom fabric? Does it really save ANY weight at all, since the quilt needs to be made wider to avoid drafts (plus you might want straps in colder weather)? Does all that extra top and bottom WIDTH fabric weigh (plus straps) less than a zipper? [probably?] What about a zipperless top bag (GG sold, or still sells one)?

I'm NOT talkin' warm or hot summer night here. I can buy into a quilt for those sleeping temps where on might prefer to throw the quilt off (just like blankets at home) for a portion of the night when one gets too hot, and then cover up if one gets too cold. Sure i can do it with a mummy bag, but, i'll admit, it's easier to do that w/a quilt.

Also, the lack of an integrated hood (in other than perhaps Dr. Caffin's homemade quilt) also, to my way of thinking and very limited experience, is a weak point also. It's fairly easy for movements to allow cold air to enter at this point. One thing i really like about a mummy bag is the integrated, very well insulated hood. If my head is kept very warm, then the rest of me stands a better chance of stayin' warm too, all other things considered equal. For me, personally, this is very impt in COLD weather. I know that there are down insulated balaclava's/hoods/headgear that some "Quilt-ers" will use in cold weather. However, doesn't this still provide an entry point for cold air b/t the head-covering and the quilt-proper?

Plus, in COLD weather, a 4.6oz (or heavier – up to maybe 7oz) Cuben fiber or PQ + nylon bivy is added to help eliminate drafts, but still allows for some air xchange b/t quilt & uninsulated bivy which, again, needs reheating by the body. Isn't any weight savings of the quilt is lost if a bivy is used?

In cold weather, i swear by a mummy bag with the opening nearly totally closed up with, usually, only my nose sticking out just a wee bit, & an OR gorilla or Seirus neoprene full-face balaclava covering my nose to keep my "snorkel" warm also.

Ok, i know i'm not the sharpest tool in the shed, so what did i not understand in my quilt experiments? What did i miss that has caused me to stick with mummy bags?

Many thanks in advance to those who take the time to educate me with their replies.

Why don't quilt users use a top bag in the winter? Well… I can think of three reasons.

(1) Some of us switch to a sleeping bag :-) I have found that when it's below 20F I really like the coziness of my fluffy WM sleeping bag. The colder the conditions, the more important it is to block drafts and to have insulation over all exposed areas. I have found that this is easier to accomplish this in a full sleeping bag for only a minor weight penalty. In the winter I am already carrying enough that I move from super or ultralight to lightweight.. so a few extra ounces don't matter to me.

(2) It's what we have. Some quilt users have a single, do everything quilt. In the peak of summer it's a bit warm. In the winter they need to bring an extra layer of clothing for sleeping… but it works, is simple, and was a single purchase. A variation of this is that we own a winter bag, but it has been loaned to someone. We loaned them the bag because it's easier for a novice to use and we know how to use our clothing / quilt / etc in a system which will keep us warm.

(3) For hard core, ultra/super light winter packers, it's a war of grams. The quilt is part of an overall *system* which includes a number of multi-purpose items such as clothing and a bivy. The "variable girth" of a quilt enables the user to tailor the width to match what insulation is worn eliminating gaps without crushing insulation.

–Mark

Mark (or anyone else), many thanks for the swift reply.

Given your very high level of experience, I'm payin' close att'n to your words.

So, #1 i buy – basically, you're sayin' that some Quilt-ers would agree with me on a mummy bag possibly bein' warmer/more-comfortable – oz. for oz. or gm. for gm, or warmer & close enough in wt. to the quilt system to make the warmth/comfort of the mummy bag worth the couple-to-few xtra oz.

Your reason #2 makes perfect sense also. We all make do w/what we have. Good point.

I'm still mulling over reason #3. I'd like to see some REAL numbers from someone that for cold weather (below 40F, below 32F, and at 20F for instance) that shows a quilt system is as warm (or warmer) *AND* as light (or lighter) as a mummy bag system. I'm not sayin' that it's not, but i'm just a little bit skeptical.

What i'm thinking is (and it prob. flawed on one or more pts): vs. M-bag

quilt, since it has more area needs more down. [i'm assuming here that the underbody area of the m-bag is less than the added widith/area of the quilt.]

quilt, since it has more area needs more lt. wt. fabric.

quilt, since it's cold needs 2-3 underbody straps (needs is too strong a word here, but many seem to say that they're needed when it's cold – unless i totally misunderstand other's Posts on this issue)

quilt needs an extra nice, large, thick down hood, not normally counted in the quilt wt.

quit req. that the Quilt-er carry a tad more food (assuming food of equal caloric density for quilt-er & m-bagger) due to need to warm the nearly inevitable unwanted cold air entrance that can occur.

quilter needs to carry a 4.6-7.5 oz bivy to also minimize cold air entry upon movement. m-bagger may carry such, but doesn't need to (unless in an ice cave???) or sleeping in a floorless shelter & not using a gnd cloth or sufficient pad & gear to keep bag off of the snow floor.

in cold weather m-bagger might get a better night's sleep than quilt-er due to unwanted cold air entry during sleepy-time nocturnal motions.

Anyone, where am i missing the point and making incorrect assumptions? Not sayin' i'm right; just sayin' that i'm having trouble seein' or understanding the rational of "quilts are lighter than an m-bag for COLD weather".

i will admit that the R.Dial approach to "nighttime urinary incontinence avoidance efforts" ought to be easier in a quilt than in a mummy bag – but, i'm just usin' my imagination here. though unwanted cold air entry might exacerbate this urgency for the quilt user?

What's the practical lower limit for a quilt system? In other words, what do the die-hard cold weather quilt users on the Forums take their quilt systems down to and what do their systems weigh?

Again, many thanks for taking the time to Post and educate me.

I once was a top bag (MacPac Neve) user and have switched to a quilt (Nunatak). I like the quilt for its multi temperature capability. I have used quilts down to 15 F (with extra clothing) and it seems to me that a quilt has greater usability than a sleeping bag, even though I have used "top bags" I prefer a quilt.

I feel that the right clothing to match your quilt is critical and if you can achieve that then you will be warm, and at least survive, in very difficult conditions.

But YWMV (your warmth may vary)

Roger

"So, why don't quilt users use top bags in colder weather?"

Actually I do. My girlfriend and I sat down and cursed and laughed our way through making a quilt for my Colorado Trail through-hike last summer. I have since sold off all my older sleeping bags and bought a Big Agnes Mystic, my cold weather top bag.

I need to explain the primary reason why I did both. I'm a "wide load" kind of guy, the type who literally starved myself on a regular basis while I was in the Marine Corps. I currently hover around a 53 inch chest, with a waistline that can easily reach 43 inches by the end of a school year, only to drop back to around 38 inches after a full summer of hiking and climbing. But the net result is the same. A typical sleeping bag of 60 inch girth will only fit me comfortably if at least one arm is cut off. I typically turned these bags on their sides and wrapped them around me like a quilt with an impractical hood.

Thus I decided to try quilts. The result is that I have a quilt that is about 59 inches around at the top and tucks beneath me nicely. Despite being 800 fill down, the bag still weighs 26 ounces, due to the sheer size required to effectively wrap me. But I am better off with a comfortable bag that really works well for me.

Then came the switch to the massive 70 inch girth BA Mystic. The bag weighs 44 ounces (despite published weights of only 36 ounces), but is worth it to me since I can actually close it all the way up. I love the fact that any 20 inch pad will work, so I can range from the BA insulated air core through to a Gossamer Gear pad (though it takes a good bit of work to slide this one in). Though rated at 15 degrees, I suspect I can stay warm in this down to probably 5 when fully closed up.

With my quilt, I can probably sleep at 30 degrees in full comfort and extend it another 10-15 degrees by wearing a down jacket (which I can only manage with a quilt as a bag compresses the down). So while I don't save weight versus traditional bags, for the nearly same weight I get sleeping options that actually FIT.

For summer I use a military issue Enhanced poncho liner. It currently weighs 23 ounces, but I intend to cut it into a quilt design and believe I can knock off another 4-5 ounces of fabric. This system should be perfectly comfortable down to about 50 (for me), and will likely be my go-to bag in my hammock.

Roger,

Do you find much unwanted cold air entry during the night in your quilt system?

Do you use an UL bivy as part of your quilt sleep system?

How much does your 15F sleep system weigh (including the necessary extra clothing)?

Do you think that you could put together a lighter 15F sleep system using a different quilt and/or clothing?

Did that MacPac top-bag lack a full-length zipper, hence greatly reducing the upper T-range that it could reasonably handle?

I'd have to agree w/you on the greater multi-temp capability of the quilt system. Though there have been times i'll leave my head out of the m-bag hood, and possibly pull-up & peel-down clothes in my 1/2-zip WM Highlite m-bag, or unzip my MB m-bag & use it like a quilt if it's too warm and i picked the wrong (score another pt. for the quilt's multi-T ability) m-bag for the trek, or i'll just lay on top of the m-bag inside of the bivy or tent on warmer/hotter nights.

Not tryin' to engage in "quilt-bashing" here, just want everything to logically fall into place – so i understand all the "why's" and "wherefore's". i know i must be missin' somethin'.

Thanks again.

Shawn, understood. some rather unique needs.

just curious, did you consider the MB SuperStretch DownHugger bags before settling on BA Mystic? NOT sayin' you made a bad choice – in fact, it's undoubtedly a good choice that you made. I do know that a MB SSDH #1 (a good +15F, or maybe +10F, bag with a s-t-r-e-t-c-h-e-d ~71" girth) is only 36oz, and a MB SSDH #0 is easily a 0F, or lower, to +10deg bag is 44oz – close to the BA Mystic in wt.

based upon your experience and choice, i think i'll take a look at the BA top-bag offerings again. as i recall from a few yrs ago, it was weight that swayed me to MB SS system vs. the BA top-bags.

Many thanks for taking the time to reply to my questions.

Oh, and i hear ya' on the starvin'. Those ht/wt tables don't take into acct. the "wide body" types. At the time, at under 5% body fat, i was just a couple of pounds from havin' to do extra PT every afternoon to make weight. I felt like i was still in power-lifting training! I would run extra miles on many days just so i could eat a big meal! I can still remember one guy, last name of Brock, 5' 9"(IIRC???) & ~245lb. Everyone else looked like a stick cp. to him – massively broad and naturally mightily muscled (never lifted weights in his life; he was a veritable "gorilla"). He had very little body fat, but everyday until a Dr. just happened to drive by and saw him and came to his aid, he was out there on the Grinder doin' PT. The charts really didn't apply to him either. Wonder what cold weather sleeping bag Brock would pick? Probably the BA Mystic too!!

the correct way to stop drafts on the sides of a quilt is simply to make the quilt wide enough that you can tuck the sides under you and/or allow the excess wide to pile up and block drafts that way. This was discovered thousands of years ago by the first people who used furs or blankets to keep warm. No one with any sense would cut their blanket so narraw that it doesn't cover them properly. The way to save weight is to replace some of the width with a draft skirt, like in the Ray-Way draft stopper, which Jhaura already pointed out. This is not rocket science and while Ray may have independently discovered the concept of a draft skirt, he didn't invent it, because I was doing the same thing on my original Ray-Way style quilt (from the ideas in BB) and I'm sure many other people came up with the same idea independently as well. A typical draft skirts is about 7" wide.

Controlling drafts at the neck area is a little trickier. After much experimentation, and hundreds of nights sleeping under quilts while camping, the solution I came up with is as follows. Make the quilt extra long and wide at the head end (about 54" wide), then sew together the edges at the head end for about 17", thus leaving about 10" unsewed (54" / 2 = 27"). The 10" unsewed gap of this "head pocket" equates to a circle about 20" in circumference, or a little more than 6" in diameter. This is the "breathing hole". If you are a back sleeper, then you simply pull the breathing hole down over your nose and mouth. The 17" of sewed-up head-pocket should be just enough to cover the back and top of your head. Note that the draft skirt mentioned earlier extends all the way up the sides and this is also sewed up, thus protecting from drafts just behind your head. For side sleepers, you can just pull the breathing hole down to near your mouth. It won't be as good a fit as for back sleeping, but it works. The head pocket adds an enormous amount of warmth to a quilt and acts like a hood on a sleeping bag.

The seam of the head pocket is a line of potential coldness, so you might want to make some draft tubes to cover this seam. The easiest way to do this is simply run the seam about an inch or two from the head end, and thus the seam automatically creates a draft tube when the head pocket is turned inside out.

I have yet to try this head pocket system with down though I'm planning to this coming season. I'm sure it will work for back sleepers. However, when sleeping on the side, there will probably be a tendency for breath moisture to get into the quilt due to the the breathing hole not being positioned exactly over the nose and mouth. My camping is strictly 3-season at this point and a little moisture is seldom a problem. For winter campers, it might be necessary to line the breathing hole somehow with silnylon.

I tried the idea of using a separate hood with quilts and find this to be a big nuisance. The whole point of a quilt is ease of temperature adjustment–you just push the quilt aside when you're warm then pull it back over you when you're cold. Whereas a hood is a nuisance to pull off and put back on.

Frank, great suggestions.

Do you think your quilt system is lighter than a comparable mummy bag system?

I can easily believe that your quilt system is more flexible when it comes to temp. range & also wearing layers in it (MB SS system being an exception to other m-bags & possibly being near equal to wearing insul layers in a quilt).

"just curious, did you consider the MB SuperStretch DownHugger bags before settling on BA Mystic?"

PJ, No I hadn't looked at the Montbell options. My experience has been that their clothing would never ever fit me. I've heard that they typically run a size smaller in cut (understandable for the Japanese market), and I typically wear an American XXL in jackets. Thus I would not have considered any of their bags remotely fitting me. Now I'll have to do some research to see how much down will be compressed in their stretchable bags.

PJ,

A quilt with integrated hood like I use is most definitely lighter than a mummy bag. There is no zipper and less surface area. My most recent polarguard quilt weighs 800 grams (28 oz) while an equivalent mummy bag would probably weigh 1200 grams (42 oz). I should note that my quilt is 2 layers of 3 oz/sqyd Polarguard, which compressed to about 1.2" loft by the end of the hiking season. If you need a bag good down to sub-freezing temperatures, then I would suggest using 3 layers of 3 oz/sqyd Polarguard 3D. The other continuous fiber insulations will also lose substantial loft with use. The manufacturer specs need to be adjusted by 30%-40%. This does not affect the quilt versus bag comparison since synthethic bags lose loft as well. A 0°F Polarguard bag is thus good for perhaps 20°F for the average person.

A down quilt with integrated or with separate hood will likewise be substantially lighter than a down mummy bag. I'm having a down quilt made right now based on the design described in my earlier post. It should weigh about 700 grams (24 oz).

The reason I use a quilt is for comfort and ease of use rather than to save weight. It justs seems more natural to pull something over me rather than to zip myself up inside a bag. Even if quilts and mummy bags were the same weight, I would still use a quilt.

>Do you find much unwanted cold air entry during the night in your quilt system?<

no, the straps can be tightened up when necessary and therefore turning into a sleeping bag (without a hood)

>Do you use an UL bivy as part of your quilt sleep system?<

Depends on the shelter in use, with a poncho tarp yes, with the TT Contrail no.

>How much does your 15F sleep system weigh (including the necessary extra clothing)?<

Good question, in my view I would take the clothing anyway if I knew it was going to get a bit cool.

>Do you think that you could put together a lighter 15F sleep system using a different quilt and/or clothing?<

There is clearly a limit here and it is related to the clo/tog/???? values,. In my view a Nunatak quilt combined with down or synthetic gear will work (for me at least)

>Did that MacPac top-bag lack a full-length zipper, hence greatly reducing the upper T-range that it could reasonably handle?<

The Neve may have been the first top bag, I am not sure about that, it had a half side zipper, not full zipper so in part it did limit the temp range. But it also had a sleeping pad sleeve, which in my view was okay, but the quilt provided more flexibility and " space" with the straps very loose.

You may not be missing anything, I think that sleeping bags, like footwear, is a personal thing and in my view it is very easy for us to rationalise why something is good or bad. In the end it will be what we decide is best for us.

Roger

Roger and Frank,

Many thanks for your replies. Both very well written and understandable – even to me! I do like things white or black – at least for me. i do, however, understand that there are diff. "shades" of "white"(??!!) and diff. "shades" of "black"(??!!) when it comes to others – i.e, no right or wrong in a lot of things; personal pref. is impt.

I now have a much better understanding of quilts thanks to your responses. I hadn't gained all of your insights from my brief experiment in quilt use.

The m-bags work for me right now, so i'll stick with them, but i prob. could have saved a bunch of $$ if i had heard of quilts earlier and acquired a better understanding of some desirable modifications to them.

Perhaps it's a sub-human "denning" instinct, or a latent, sub-concious "womb" memory, but i sure do like being nicely ensconced and snug in a m-bag w/only my "snorkel" protruding – maybe that's why i also like bivies???

Like you both stressed, YMMV and HYOH.

> quilt, since it has more area needs more down. [i'm
> assuming here that the underbody area of the m-bag is less > than the added widith/area of the quilt.]

Depends on the bag and the quilt. My quilt has less area than my bag does. The quilt doesn't need zipper.

> quilt, since it's cold needs 2-3 underbody straps

In cold weather I would use the word need. Mine has two straps which have been enough for me. They a very light.

> quilt needs an extra nice, large, thick down hood, not
> normally counted in the quilt wt.

If you are a stomach or side sleeper, it is possible to tuck you head under the quilt and not need a thick down hood. I have done this at times when I was starting to get chilled.

I don't have a thick down hood, but I do bring a golite snow cap. It does get used when I am sleeping. I also use it as a a warm-up piece, e.g. it is part of my clothing system.

> quit req. that the Quilt-er carry a tad more food

What food I bring doesn't change.

> quilter needs to carry a 4.6-7.5 oz bivy

Depends on the shelter being used and conditions faced. I typically don't use a bivy because my shelter can be rigged to block enough wind that just the quick works well enough.

> in cold weather m-bagger might get a better night's sleep > than quilt-er due to unwanted cold air entry during
> sleepy-time nocturnal motions.

That has been my experience which is why I sometimes switch from my quilt to be sleeping bag when the temp drops below 20F. If I had more insulation on my legs like the Micro Puff pants that have tempted me time to time I don't think this would be an issue.

> What's the practical lower limit for a quilt system?

About the same as a sleep bag :-) Seriously though, when you are getting into serious cold weather, you are already going to have seriously warm clothing which have to be adaquate to keep you warm when cooking, etc (e.g. enough insulation for low activity). Once you are wearing those cloths, drafts have a much smaller effect. In fact, in really cold conditions I would bet that a quilt might be ideal (though I haven't tried it).

What's the lowest I have gone? 10-15F depending on the trip. I was warm enough to sleep. I was using a ghost quilt and a BA insulated air core mat. Clothing was ultralight tights and a featherweight powerdry base, hiking pants and light hiking wool socks. On one one trip I was wearing a 100wt fleece (my thermawrap vest was being borrowed by a friend and my jacket was layered over my daughter)… I slept but was slightly chilled. On other trips I was warm enough with the 100wt fleece replaced by either a patagonia r.5 base + thermawrap vest or a thermawrap jacket.

I believe that that quilt based system would be a few ounces lighter that a sleeping bag based system if both were carefully designed. I think that the weight difference between equiv. systems is in the noise once you are facing really cold temps. Selection should be based on preference and camplife style.

–mark

Mark, Many thanks for the very articulate, detailed, and informative reply. Good info. I'm saving your Post as well as Frank's and Roger's in a file that i have of UL B.P. info.

This has been a very good Thread for me. Learned some good things here.

Many thanks to you and to all who took the time to educate me.