Flooring underlayment foam

Eric – can you please weigh some of that stuff and post results?

I have about 400" on roll of 42" wide, aluminized mylar on one side, PE foam, ~1/16 in thick.
Weighs 33 oz, so about 2.6 oz/sqyd.
I've used it to line a cooler with dry ice in the bottom.
Helps the dry ice last a lot longer.

It has been talked about at Hammock Forums where it may be the same foam as used in Insultex. I've paid little attention to those discussions, having no interest in the VBL property of Insultex.

One early Insultex adopter has changed to just using bare foam (no scrim) to save cost and weight since his finished insulation products will always be enclosed in nylon fabrics for durability. Note that may or may not be the same foam as yours.

Per Hammock Forums posters, Insultex has a range of appropriate temperatures where the VBL condensation is manageable.

The floor foam is available at home improvement stores but only in large quantities.

I was at HD, and happened to be carrying a postal scale in my car, so took it inside. I weighed a number of the underlayments available, and here's what I found (compared to GossamerGear's Thinlight Evazote on the first line):

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Most of the underlayment is around .08-.09 in thickness; some of it seems ideal for protecting a tent floor or sleeping pad, and adding a bit of insulation. For example, the one that made the best impression on me was the FloorMuffler, which seemed resilient and tough–but still light at .31 oz per square foot. For 8 square feet of it (that's what GG sells you) the floor underlayments would cost between $1.00 and $5.20 for a pad. But you have to buy a roll of it; that's the catch. And who needs 100 square foot of underlayment. Chop it up and send it to your BPL buddies, but then, there's postage.

The ounce/square foot numbers are all very reasonable; about same weight as 1/8 Thinlight but the Thinlight is obviously thicker for that same weight.

The actual material can be closed cell foam, foam balls adhered to a plastic sheet, and an interesting foam bonded to a reflective plastic surface (the TrafficMaster Premium)–advertised as the option for warming your floor. There's also felt/fiber underlayment, but I didn't mess with that, it's heavy.

I'm about to buy a piece of GG 1/8" Thinlight, and one thing I'll be watching for is evazote's durability, and how compact I can get it–does it take folds nicely, or must it be rolled? I wonder, if compactness along with pad protection, is top priority (over insulation) then perhaps underlayment might make a good option?

If I had a roll of, say, the FloorMuffler, I'd also try to make a vest out of it.

EDIT: I forgot to add, all these rolls are 4 ft wide. So if you sliced the short way, you could make about 15x 4 foot torso pads. If you cut the long way, aiming for 60x 20" pads, you'd get 10 of them per roll, and a really long strip of waste 8" wide.

EDIT 2: The GG pad is actually $24 with shipping. So that's more like $3 per square foot.

Wow, I must have some extra heavy stuff. I thought of this idea a while back, and grabbed a leftover piece out of the shop to weigh it. It looked like a really thin blue CCF pad, so thought it would be light. I didn't measure it, but roughly 2 sq yards weighed over 2 pounds! I promptly scrapped the idea.

Maybe a trip to the store is in order after all.

Edit: and yes, pad protection (NeoAir) only was my thought. The stuff i had was much wider than the sub 20" Thinlight stuff too, so could double as ground cover and replace it when damaged, off the large master roll.

Delmar has some great points. I've got the thinlight for protection for my NeoAir (barely used yet so I can't report on long term compacting/durability). Insulation for me doesn't matter at all-its just a bonus/emergency measure. However, if I can save a smidge of weight and get it more compact for cheap, the FloorMuffler type stuff sounds fantastic.

A roll of it isn't an issue as I can give it to other hikers and Scouts.

Delmar,

Thanks for taking the time to weigh and post. Very helpful.

Should add: All instructions indicated these underlayment pads were designed to tape together (which you must do when using them as underlayment). So I'm wondering if a folding "Z-lite" approach, with taped seams being the articulation points, would work. I think a folded pad would pack easier than a rolled one, yes?

Shoot, Adam, I was going to propose we split a roll, but you being in Australia and me in Californeay, I guess we'll have to go Dutch and get our own.

Potentially yes. If its flexible enough sometimes pads can be squished to have pretty much no airgaps inbetween the folds. Tape can add weight, depends if you leave much gap between panels of pad. Not going the pre-fold option can give you more flexibility in packing, eg, if you decide you can roll it in the tube method, or lay it flat against your back, or roll it tight and strap it outside (though that one doesn't matter either way). The pre-fold method can make for a better pack framesheet in some packs. If you want to use it with different packs though you might need different sizes. But then this stuff is cheap compared to extra packs so no reason to not have dedicated pads (unless storage space at home is an issue).

Horses for courses :-)

EDIT: Yeah I'm in Japan (currently) but back home to Australia in a month. Damn shipping. Products between hardware stores don't always line up that great between Aus and the US in my experience here on BPL, so I'd likely have to do the research you just did from scratch for myself.

Although, I do have a California shipitto warehouse address I could use. How much would half a roll cost(US$), and most importantly weigh of the Floor Muffler stuff? Can you include some of the dedicated tape for it? Also, if you are going to the hardwear store I might get you to pick up a roll of that heat tape for pots/cans others have mentioned in other threads too…

Adam: Floor Muffler is $65/roll so half that. But since you haven't had a chance to examine the goods, maybe we should wait for at least another observation or two that the Floor Muffler would be the best choice of the options at HD. I wouldn't mind a second opinion on that, frankly. And I've not yet looked to see what Lowe's carries, but I intend to. Now the underlayment tape…I'm certain it's available right nearby; I just didn't think to examine it. I've installed underlayment before and for the life of me can't remember what the tape was like!! Now, as regards the adhesive thermo-shield heat tape you mention, I've not seen in HD but it may be there–thought that was an Auto store buy. (HD does have the carbon fiber heat resistant pads for soldering/welding, but that's different.) Be sure to read Dan's recent statement that "the stuff is not worth the powder to blow it up" before you order any of the adhesive thermo-shield heat tape, tho.

Yeah I just saw Dan's statement. I can understand that it could be a bit subjective/not that up to scratch, but I'm willing to give it a try, though I might wait until I try fibreglass wick first. I am also interested in its benefits on a bottle-pot above the windscreen to improve performance (and durability of the pot), so it wouldn't be a complete waste if it doesn't improve holding too much.

Happy to wait on other opinions if you want to, I've got a Thinlight Pad for myself for now.

So here's a call for a friendly BPL'er or two to hoof it over to Home Depot, take a look at the underlayments (in the laminate flooring section), and see which you think would work best for packing, and in particular, NeoAir protection. That's my major concern, too.

Do you like the FloorMuffler best, as I do, or do you think one of the other choices would work better?

Yup, Floor Muffler looks best. Looks durable and sure is light. Looks to be abrasion resistant, which the PE reflective surfaced one might not be. I recall hearing the thin foam "groudsheets" tore quickly.

Funny, a while ago I went looking for the Evazote foam I got from MEC and so love, but they only sell 20" wide. Internet search showed it being used in Europe for….floor underlayment. This Floor Muffler seems a tad stiffer, but hard to tell with stuff that thin. Stiffer=better for Neoair protection.

“Anyone ever use this stuff??”

Eric,

There have been some previous posts on using it. Here’s one:

UNDERLAYMENT

So, I could not help myself. I bought a roll of FloorMuffler, $65+ tax. According to my calculations, it'll cut into maybe 8 full-length pad-sized pieces ((25 feet / 6 feet) * 2). So each pad would cost you $8. I want half a roll of FM, and I promised the other half to Adam K (waiting for a return message, calling Adam K, are you out there?). If you cut the roll into the size of the 1/8 GG ThinLight pads, the FloorMuffler pads would weigh just a scootch less than the GG pads, about 2.4 oz by my calcs. I cut my first one quite a bit larger than the GG pad at 22×78 for more rock protection, so I'm at 3.7 oz. (The GG 1/8 ThinLite is only 19×59.)

This material is made of cross-linked polypropylene. The sheet with the roll states "…superior moisture protection. Exceeds industry standards by over 700% (.3 lbs./1000 ft squared / 24 hours)." Also, "resilient, nonreactive and fully recyclable." And finally "Made in the USA." As mentioned above, weighs in at .31 oz per square foot, more or less. Haven't taken the new pad for a hike yet. I'll add to the thread as I get a chance to test.

First impression is that it's tough enough for what I need, but only time will tell; after handling it I don't feel it needs to be babied. Doesn't seem fragile, but neither does it feel as tough as my 3/8 blue Walmart CCF pad. I used my new FM pad to make a "sushi roll" of my poles, tent, fly, pad, and pillow. Just rolled it all up as you can see below. Not much folding involved. The NeoAir pad stays full width, for example. Saves me unpacking time, and allows me to leave at least 3 stuff-sacks at home, while adding a thicker layer of padding for everything inside. Admittedly, this roll does take up a good bit of real estate inside my 60L pack–but it did previously, too. I have to face facts that a Hubba tent is simply a lot of fabric; it is what it is.

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How does it look like it would stand up to creasing? If it were folded up and used in a frame sleeve on a pack for example. I'm kind of looking at swapping out the sitlight pad in my Murmur for something like this possibly.

Looks good Delmar.

Sending you a PM with details now.

Cheers!

PS: Sent you an email mate

Here's 200 folds, each 180 degrees (forward, back, forward, back…), on a 1" strip.

I stressed the crease with a light ripping motion but it held.

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^^^^^ THIS!!! ^^^^^^

Is the awesome thing about this project and BPL. So much cheap-as test material, people willing to work together to incrementally find better solutions!!!

This looks promising for those who want to do folded pads (Me inc).

:-)

If anyone wants a little bit of my half a roll, PM Delmar ASAP before he posts it, I don't mind giving up a pad length or two.

Failed at 19 lbs. pull. Here's the setup for the test. The ends turned triple but single width in the center (where it eventually failed). This was a 1" strip as before. Does that mean my 22" width pad, under ideal evenly distributed conditions, could hang 418 lbs?

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> If anyone wants a little bit of my half a roll, PM Delmar ASAP before he posts it, I don't mind giving up a pad length or two.

LOL, no, it'll be plenty work for me to get Adam's roll shipped out–it's that soft spot we all feel for Aussies. Not looking to go into the shipping business. This stuff is readily available to you USA folks, just hoof it down to HD and help yourself. Glad if my "tests" can help you decide, though.

Well this is interesting and not what I expected. I fired up my belt grinder, which has a 100 grit belt on it, and held the FM polypropylene pad to it. (The flash makes it look like the belt wasn't running, but it was!) I didn't push the pad into the belt with force, just held it up as you can see in the photo, and let the 100 grit take a good long scrape at it.

Didn't do much to the polypropylene. I was expecting it to get shredded.

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Last test for the evening was a "poke it with a map tack" test. Very subjective, sorry. I have no "push scale" that would work here. So I got my Walmart 3/8" blue CC foam pad, and a strip of the FM pad, and poked both with a map tack, maybe 20 times each. Obviously there was a lot more depth to the blue CC foam pad which would stop pine needles and what not, but I was gauging the resistance to the *start* of the poke (does that make sense?). I thought the FM pad was about twice as hard to penetrate as the blue CC foam pad, but then asked my wife to repeat the test. Obviously I did not tell her my guesstimate at 2x. She poked both several times, said, "I dunno, maybe the blue pad is twice as easy to poke?" And then she added: "You are so ODD. Why are you poking these pads?" Well, 2x was the multiplier I got too. BUT, as I say, very subjective, and perhaps I shouldn't even make the guess publicly. The FM pad is definitely not armor plate, but seems to offer more initial resistance than the CC blue pad.

That probably makes sense, because the FM pad is denser.

maybe you could set up a "bed of nails" type thing, then see how much weight each one takes before forming holes?

Though getting both spouses to agree on a number is good, too.

"maybe you could set up a "bed of nails" type thing, then see how much weight each one takes before forming holes?

Though getting both spouses to agree on a number is good, too."

A bed of nails job might work well. Especially with a bunch of random diameter nails, each with a few n on the test bed, then a piece of very hard rigid board and a piece of very easily punctured substance like a very think piece of black plastic. Put the plastic on the board, then put that down on the pad, on top of the bed of nails, so that if the nails go through the pad, they'll then puncture the black plastic. Then add weight at increments on top of the board, each time take off black plastic and hold up to the light. Could make for a good test of puncture resistance. Could also test creased parts of different foams to see if they have reduced puncture resistance over time.

Comparing 1/8 thinlight pad to this new foam is probably more worthwhile than 3/8 CC, as people who are carrying the foam as a neoair or air mattress protector are probably in the light-as-possible 1/8 shopping ballpark.

In the past when using 3/8 on really thorny ground (eg three corner jacks, or caltrop in Australia), a few times I've picked up the mat in the morning and had a whole bunch of them deeply embedded. I've then had to spend a few minutes picking them out, including jabbing my fingers a bit. The depth, while it protected my (at the time prolite or BPL torsolite) self inflating pads, meant that the thorns definitely stuck in. Its possible that I wouldn't have applied enough pressure to push through the new 1/8 foam in the first place, and then would have had less hassle in the morning.