Hilleberg Tent thread

[Tipi Walter]

“I believe they have since upgraded all their red label tents to match their black labeled tent in terms of guyout webbings and zippers. Just if anyone ran across this thread and was considering between the two.”

You’re right and it’s depressing.  I recently had to upgrade to a new Keron 3 and noticed the once beefy guyout webbing tabs are the same as on my buddy’s Kaitum red label tent.  And as mentioned the zippers are more flimsy.  AND YET . . .

When I got my first Keron many years ago it was listed at 8 lbs 10 ozs—even with the heavier tabs and zips.  Now the same tent comes in at 9 lbs even.  So much for using lighter materials.

[David U]

At 8 lbs, 10 oz, the move to 9 lbs shouldn’t stress you too much.  You were willing to carry the original weight.

[Franco Darioli]

Tipi,
I read Garrett’s comment to mean the Red label tents now use the heavier bits, not the other way around.

[Tipi Walter]

No, the black label Keron uses the red label guyout tabs—and smaller zippers.

Here’s the old Keron guyout webbing tabs—12 total on the Keron 3 tent.

And here’s the new black label Keron 3 webbing tabs—

I emailed Hilleberg about the surprise and they said yes, they went with the flimsier tabs.

[Garrett]

Franco, you read my comment correctly. Im glad Tipi was able to shed more light on the subject.

When I called Hilleberg they said they now use the same guyout tabs and zippers for their red and black label tents. I just assumed it would be for the better… I guess they felt the beefier tab and zippers weren’t needed. At least I hope that was their reasoning.

[Tipi Walter]

My friend Hoppin John’s Allak uses the “flimsier” guyout tabs and he had one rip out during a hell storm on a NC open meadow bald.  When I heard about it I blamed the “substandard” red label tabs—now my black label tent uses the same dang tabs.

And the smaller zippers are a real issue or could be.  The reason I buy black label is to get beefier zippers at all costs.  Not anymore.

[Roger Caffin]

I can understand Hilleberg’s reasoning about the lighter tabs (gros-grain vs webbing). Suppose the lighter tab will only hold 100 kgf: will the tent withstand 100 kgf tension on a pole? (No way is the correct answer here.)

What matters more is how well the tab is sewn in place. If you can rip the tab out of the seam, that is probably NOT a fault of the tab but of the sewing.

One could also argue that the lighter gros-grain material is a better structural match to the pole sleeve material compared to heavier webbing. This also matters.

Zippers are a slightly different matter. If you are careful with them, #3 plastic coil-coil zips are quite able to withstand any conditions. I will cite my tents as proof of that.) But Hilleberg has to allow for novices and careless teenagers who do not take care, so they have to go up in strength.

I remember asking a local mfr why he was using #8 zippers in his sleeping bags (when I was using #3). His answer was a single word: ‘returns’. People trash gear and expect the mfr to repair at no charge.

Cheers

[Garrett]

I agree with all the points Roger made. That said, I would still prefer a beefier zipper.

After reading 35 pages of this thread “thanks covid-19” I chose to purchase the Soulo. Hopefully, space won’t be an issue at 5’10”. I was contemplating the Nammatj2, but since I’m a restless sleeper, I had concerns with the flapping noise during high wind.

[David U]

Garrett,

 

I have a Soulo and am just over 6’1″.  It isn’t palatial by any stretch but it works.  It is also the defacto strongest tent I have ever used.  Have fun.

[Garrett]

Thats good to know. I’ll be sure to provide others with my feedback once it arrives.

[Wangle]

Bumping an older thread here.

I recently bought a Hilleberg Saivo because it wast the closest, available tent to a Keron 3, an expedition tent that I would use on Denali in a couple years.  It’s a tent I would use for 2 person multi-day trips and multi-week trips.  After camping out in the Saivo a couple times, it seems like it’s a bit overkill for most SoCal winter trips.  We would have to purposely plan to chase gale winds or camping on exposed summits to put the tent to the real test.

I’m considering swapping it out for a Kaitum 3 when they become available.  I think red label would be more than enough for 2-5 day trips and picking our campsites carefully.  Or keep the Saivo and take the weight penalty and be covered IF something unpredictable were to happen.  What do y’all think?

[dirtbag]

That is such a bomber tent!! Keep them both???

[William O]

Dear Friends,
Thank you for this great thread!

By now, I have read everything I can find online about the Kaitum 2/3 tents, although I have not watched all the YouTube videos.
I am thinking about getting a Kaitum 2 for solo use, the most important feature being the vertical walls.
My use would be in state parks and on maintained trails.
However, there are a few points that I haven’t found addressed in most of the posts and reviews I’ve read:
1. How much trouble have Kaitum users had finding sites large enough to accommodate the tent? I’m thinking especially of trails like the AT, CDT, PCT. Here in Minnesota, we have the SHT with its tent pads, most of which would not accommodate a 14-ft tent. And it’s been so long since I was on the AT or even the Western trails, and with much smaller tents, that I just can’t recall the sites. Of course, this would only apply in cases where campers were asked/required to camp only in designated areas, which might not afford enough space for a long tent.
2. It seems that some people have had trouble with water coming through the stitching. Anecdotally, this does not seem like a lot of people — maybe 1 out of 5 or 7? — but even that is enough to raise concern.
One solution that some users have offered is to seal the urethane-coated floor seams with McNett (now Gear Aid?) Seam Grip and the outer tent seams with Gear Aid’s Sil-Net.
Also, I went on line and it looks like HB has not changed their claim that “you do not need to seam seal our tents.”
So, I guess I’m just wondering how widespread this problem really is. It seems like most of the reviews that I’ve read describe uses in snow where water leakage might not be such a problem.
3. Another complaint that I have seen is that rainwater can pool on the top of the Kaitum and cause it to sag. The same might also apply to the Keron.
Have any of you had problems with this? I suppose that the stretching of the nylon when wet would cause this problem, so maybe it’s difficult to control for it apart from re-guying the lines after or even during a rainstorm.
4. Related to (3) is the complaint I have read that snow does not slide off the top and so needs to be cleared regularly, for instance, during an overnight snowstorm. This surprised me, since the Kaitum seems to be a lightweight version of the Keron which seems to be the HB flagship tent and is made for extreme snow conditions where presumably it would not always be possible to get out of the tent to clear snow. Also, the Kaitum roof seems to be sloped compared to the Keron, which looks more like a straight barrel.
In any case, what has been your experience with the snow load issue in those tents?

Thanks in advance for any help!

Bill

[Roger Caffin]

Precursor: I make my own tunnel tents, so my comments are based on them.

1) I have often pitched a long tunnel over a rough site. All I had to do was to make sure the area under the groundsheet was flat. The vestibules did not matter so much.

2) I always seam seal. Sealing PU fabric is easy.

3) I don’t like the ‘flat’ tops myself. If the fabric has a good hydrostatic head rating, the flat top should not leak under rain anyhow. I always pretension my tunnels lengthwise whether or not it is raining as that makes them far more secure. It won’t hurt the fabric.

4) You may have to clear the snow off the top, but a simple whack on the middle of the tent from INSIDE will do that. Easier than getting out of the tent. That said, under heavy snowfall you should clear the top of the tent lest it gets too much sag and threatens the poles.

Cheers

[William O]

Thanks, Roger!

Somehow, I wasn’t alerted that your post came through, so I’m just reading it now.

Actually, I’m back on this thread because I found another thread on a different forum that cites problems with the zippers on the HB tents—and the problems seem significant, at least enough for some people to change plans to buy them.

[Roger Caffin]

different forum that cites problems with the zippers on the HB tents
OK, my comments on this are seriously biased, so be warned. I am just trying to help.

I have used (good) #3 zips on ALL my tents, winter ones and summer ones, for decades. Also on clothing and other gear.
I have never had any problems with #3 zips. But I have always treated them very gently as a damaged zip on a two-month-long walk – or in the snow, would ‘not be good’. I have never yanked at them, or applied large forces. I keep them clean and free of sand etc, and I do not lubricate them (lube makes dirt stick).

Yes, I know others have had problems with zips. I have my own ideas as to why.

Cheers

[William O]

Thanks again, Roger.

You seem to be suggesting that HB uses #3 zips and that user problems are generally due to user error, which I would be happy to believe.

In any case, here is the thread that I mentioned:

https://woollypigs.com/2013/05/review-when-hilleberg-zippers-fail-and-fail-again/

Pretty compelling stories over the course of seven years about HB zipper fails…

[Roger Caffin]

Sorry, I have no knowledge of what size zips Hilleberg uses. I was just say that I have been using #3 for well over a decade with no problems.

I read the blog mentioned.
the zipper of the inner tent was just too worn down and couldn’t be mended.
This is personal opinion based on my experiences: zips only get worn down that way if they are operated ‘hard’ while dirty. There has got to be something to wear the zip down after all. Sand is especially bad. Sorry if that seems critical.
I am not saying this applies to the blog person: I simply do not know their situation. I am only giving my own personal experiences – and I have been using my summer and winter tents for a long time (with zero zip replacements).

I have seen people using the slider to bring the zip together while doing it up. Doing it this way requires a bit of force. That places huge wear on the teeth and on the slider. I always align the zip carefully before doing it up. No force is needed this way.

an extremely expensive ‘wilderness shelter’, supposedly designed for ‘expeditions to the most extreme environments’, which appeared to require an unreasonable level of care to maintain its integrity.
One has to have some sympathy for Petra Hilleberg.

As many other long-term members of BPL have observed: UL gear needs more care than bulk consumer gear. That is unavoidable.

Cheers

[Author]

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