Hilleberg Tent thread

[Stephen M]

That Nallo got badly thrashed. It’s definitley  an advert for the thicker poles.

[Doug Smith]

“Great info, thanks!  I wonder how the Nammatj or Keron would have done in that case, with about 20% more pole strength.  It may be worth replacing the stock 9mm poles on the Nallo with 10mm DAC poles.  The Nammatj isn’t a whole lot lighter than the Keron, and I’d feel a lot better being in the Keron in such conditions where the sag of the angled end under snow weight wouldn’t be a big concern.

In terms of design, I guess the Saivo is closest in principle to the EV, but quite a bit heavier (and presumably stronger) and double wall versus single.  I wonder how they would compare head-to-head in such conditions.”

 

Congrats on your Keron.  It’s tough to see from your photos, is that the 3 or 4?  A Keron 4 is on my short list.  The vestibules are actually large enough I think I’d skip the GT, like you did as well.  I own a Nammatj 2, and I agree with you that the weight of snow on the sloping foot end is a concern for me.  There is no doubt about it, the Hilleberg tunnels that have two vertical doors simply have way more room in them, and less chance of snow load being a problem on the sloped ends.  I think for a roomy 2 person shelter where weight was not a huge concern, the Keron 3 or 4 would be absolutely perfect.

As for the poles on the Nammatj/ Keron, the 10mm feel WAY beefier than the 9mm.  I know that’s not scientific, but I’ve never been worried about pole breakage with the 10mm poles.

As for the Saivo, I believe it is structurally, the strongest tent Hilleberg makes.  But keep in mind that the walls (and also the doors), are sharply angled, and you’d notice a huge lack of interior space in a Saivo compared to a Keron.  For a two person, bombproof tent, the Tarra is really the unsung hero of Hilleberg’s line.  It has nearly the same interior space as a tunnel, but with the absolute bomb-proof design of the Saivo.  I’ve owned both the Saivo (briefly) and the Tarra (my first Hille, which I still own and will never sell)…after having the Tarra, it made the Saivo pale in comparison.  The Saivo honestly feels smaller in both the inner tent and vestibule than the Tarra, and yet it weights 2 lbs more and is much more time consuming to erect (with all those crossing pole sleeves which are a pain in the butt).  My only criticism of the Tarra is the single roof vent.  I wish it had the same door vents as the Saivo/ Nammatj/ Keron, in addition to the roof vent. Sure, it would weigh a little more, but anyone who is using a Tarra isn’t super concerned with weight…it’s a 2 person, 9lb tent.  What I really don’t get is the popularity of the Staika.  It is entirely free standing…I get that, and that is nothing to sneer at.  But by comparison, the Tarra is the same weight as the Staika, the body of the tent is also free standing, and it has WAY more usable room inside.

[Stephen M]

Hi Doug,

Do you use your Tarra for solo trips?

I tried a Tarra  but found it was a very tight fit with two long wide pads, a lot of these models were designed when a 20″ wide pad was standard.

 

 

[Doug Smith]

Hi Stephen, yes!  But not for backpacking.  Although I’d love to get out backpacking more, the vast majority of the camping I do is on motorcycle rides.  The Tarra is my most loved, and most often used tent.  It is a palace for one.  I also use the Tarra everytime I go on a SAR training somewhere, and my pup, Ari, or Vixen if she comes, loves it as well, and with the beefy floors I never worry about dog claws.

You’re right abou the width being narrow for more than two narrow pads, but that’s pretty standard with almost all of Hilleberg’s line-up other than the Kaitum.  Unless weight is the highest priority, I’m a huge believer in reducing the stated number of occupants by one.  I’m getting really interested in the new Niak coming out.  That might just be the backpacking tent for me.  :)

[r m]

Not sure why in that blog with the Nallo the MHW EV is mentioned as the other tent that got the same snow loading looks a lot like a MHW Tangent.

Really like the look of the Tarra, I want to get one but as I already have a Jannu that’s ultimately a lot of cash for a tent I’d use in fairly limited circumstances. My take: Tarra is too heavy for a solo tent so will be exclusively used for 2 person scenarios where bad weather is a concern (else we’ll take something lighter, like the supermid). Now if I’m looking for a bad weather two person tent where the Jannu couldn’t hack it, I’m probably on a mountaineering trip, where I’d be looking at a MHW Direkt 2.
If I was on a long trip and wanted comfort as well as bombproofness for two people and didn’t mind something heavy, we’d could get a Keron 3 instead of a Tarra for about the same weight, which would also be useful for 3 person trips.

If I had a sled…I’d have to rethink all this.

[Tipi Walter]

Thanks for the Cameron Bowker collapsed tent link—here’s his pic from his blog for discussion purposes—

When I got my very first Hilleberg tent, the Nammatj 3, they sold it with 9mm poles.  I had one get bent in a windstorm.  Then Hilleberg starting selling their Kerlon 1800 tents with 10mm poles, a big difference.  My tent of choice is the Keron 3 with 10mm poles.

But the point is, who leaves their tent set up unoccupied during a snowstorm?  The main responsibility for a winter tent camper is to go out periodically and clear snow off his tent, no matter the pole diameters used.  And during a hellish windstorm it’s important to leave the tent on occasion to tighten guylines and check on ground pegs, placing rocks over them if needed.  Leaving a tent alone to a storm results in the above pic—oops.  And easily avoided.

This brings up Hilleberg’s advice to “use double poles in bad conditions”.  They make room for such a config in their pole cups and sleeves (and even clips). But really, who does this?  And who wants to carry an extra set of tent poles?  Hilleberg is unclear about when such doubling poling is needed.  And double poles with 9mm is sort of crazy when you could just go with a black label tent with a single set of 10mm poles.

[Crow]

“Congrats on your Keron. It’s tough to see from your photos, is that the 3 or 4?”

It’s a Keron 3.

“As for the poles on the Nammatj/ Keron, the 10mm feel WAY beefier than the 9mm. I know that’s not scientific, but I’ve never been worried about pole breakage with the 10mm poles.”

I posted earlier in this thread:

Think twice about switching to lighter poles – the increased stiffness of the thicker DAC poles is quite significant, while the weight difference is not. Check out: http://dacpole.com/html/stiffness_new.htm In short, a 10.5% increase in weight for a 21.5% increase in strength when comparing the 9mm and 10mm NSL’s. For the Keron 3, you’d only save 2.6oz (74.8g) and significantly increase the risk of pole failure.

“For a two person, bombproof tent, the Tarra is really the unsung hero of Hilleberg’s line.”

Funny – the first Hilleberg I really set my sights on was the Tarra, but then I thought it was too heavy and started looking into lighter alternatives. Ultimately I didn’t like the tradeoffs and ended up getting the Keron 3, which weighs almost the same as the Tarra. That said, the Tarra looks like it would be less accommodating of two 25″ wide sleeping pads, which would be a tight squeeze at best; as Stephan mentions above.

“What I really don’t get is the popularity of the Staika. It is entirely free standing…I get that, and that is nothing to sneer at. But by comparison, the Tarra is the same weight as the Staika, the body of the tent is also free standing, and it has WAY more usable room inside.”

I think it is not immediately apparent how cramped the inside is on the Staika, when looking at specs on Hilleberg’s website. I thought about it for a while before landing on the Keron, but opted against it after looking at enough pictures of it’s interior space.

[Crow]

“And double poles with 9mm is sort of crazy when you could just go with a black label tent with a single set of 10mm poles.”

Well, doubling 9mm poles would increase strength by 100%, whereas upgrading to 10mm poles would increase strength by 21.5% – so it actually isn’t a bad choice.

I’m with you though – start with the stronger 10mm poles – then if you ever do decide to double them, you’d have the ultimate in strength. If I were to use a red label tent in the winter, I would probably replace the 9mm poles with 10mm as I feel pole strength is more important than fabric and guy line strength, but am happy that I just started with an overall stronger black label tent for use this winter. An extra set of Keron poles would add 25oz to your pack…not insignificant but if you expect really awful conditions it’s tolerable. I think I will stick with one set, haha…

[Tipi Walter]

And everything on a black label tent is beefier:  Beefier poles, zippers, kerlon denier, floor, and this is important:  Guyline tabs.  Study the difference between the Keron’s tabs and the Kaitum’s—big difference.  Which equates to better holding (and 10mm poles) when crap hits the floor fan.

I just don’t see the allure of NOT getting a black label tent with all the extras as mentioned.  Weight sacrifice?  Within reason (we don’t carry canvas wall tents with a woodstove or a canvas tipi), weight is the least important criteria when it comes to a four season tent.

And generally, four season double wall tents are heavy.  But in comparison, my 4-season Keron at 36 sq feet is 8 lbs 10 ozs versus a similar North Face or Mt Hardware VE-25 or Trango 3 (or 4) at 12+ lbs.

[Crow]

When checking out the tradeoffs between black and red label Hillebergs, all in all the differences seemed in-line with the differences between 9mm and 10mm poles – you pay a little weight penalty, but the durability gain was significantly more. The question is really what you want your tent to stand up to. Personally, I think a good red label tent would be ideal for durable 3-season use with some mild snow from time to time. But for being out in the winter, I feel a whole lot happier having a black label tent.

Tipi – as you have been out a lot in yours, have you ever had a small branch fall on your tent? I had one put a couple small dents in my car the other day, and am certain my ultralight tent would just rip, but it made me curious how Kerlon 1800 would face the challenge.

[Tipi Walter]

My older green Keron has about 12 little fly holes due to falling branches and seemingly insect chew holes (do bugs like silicone??), and these holes will leak water easily but are Easily fixed with McNetts silnet silicone glue (now Gear Aid??) and so I always carry a small tube of this glue out with me on trips.  One little dab and the hole is fixed with no need for any kind of patch.

On bigger rips I carry ripstop tape cut to size and placed over the rip using silnet glue as the patch by itself won’t adhere.  I know of no repair tape including Tenacious Tape or Tear Aid Type A or B or Kenyon ripstop repair tape which will stick and stay on Kerlon UNLESS you first coat the fabric with McNetts silnet and then apply the patch, as below, when I was scraping ice off my Keron fly but my sharp stove was underneath and I ripped the kerlon.  Fixed quickly using a patch with glue.

[Stephen M]

Good discussion. I have Black, red and yellow label tents and they are have their advantages.

[Doug Smith]

OK, all you Yellow Label owners out there (and I know we have several at least), I’ve just got to know…

What difference does the all mesh inner door make as far as temperature is concerned?  As we’ve mentioned time and again in this thread, one of the huge advantages of the fabric panel doors on the inner tent is that the inner seems to be at least 15* warmer than the outside temps.  In fact, if anything, I think 15* is a very conservative estimate.  When I sleep in my Hillebergs I generally crack both inner door panels (if the tent has two), by about 3 inches on top, with the mesh closed all the way (or with a single door, I do the same with the one).  When I unzip the inner door to reach for something in the vestibule, or get out for a bathroom break, the vestibule feels shockingly cold compared to the interior of the inner tent.

I’d just think you’d lose the majority of that warmth with an all mesh door.  I do get that the Yellow Labels are for pleasant weather camping.  But where I like to hike, in the High Sierra, even the summers can obviously get chilly at night.  15-20 degrees makes a huge difference in the weight of clothes/ sleep system I’m bringing.  I’ve asked Hilleberg and they have no plans of including a fabric covering for the inner door…the response was basically, “well duh…that’s why we left it mesh”.  (but in a much nicer way) hahahaha

[Stephen M]

1. Not much really Doug as in winter I leave the door half open anyways most of the time.

[Stephen M]

Not much really Doug as in winter I leave the door half open anyways most of the time.

[Tipi Walter]

Even mesh blocks alot of air whether cold or not from entering the tent.  I leave my inner tent door open 95% of the time no matter what the weather, whereas the vestibule door is zipped shut often depending on rain or wind or spindrift or severe cold.

In certain conditions I will button up totally with everything zipped as in:  Bug and spiders are bad in the summer, severe cold attacks me at -10F or below, a very hard rain deluge whereby I get a little in-vestibule misting and splatter, and during high wind blizzards with spindrift blowing into every crevice.

Most of the time I never zip up my yellow inner door and hardly ever use just the mesh door feature.  Hilleberg design for the most part includes a ground hugging perimeter fly which blocks most everything once the vesti zipper is closed.  Ergo no need for the inner tent door to be closed.

[r m]

But the point is, who leaves their tent set up unoccupied during a snowstorm? 

You might leave camp in harmless enough conditions, end up delayed and not making it back to camp at the time you expected, then a huge dumping of snow comes along. Every time we wander away from a camp without taking down tents we risk some weather anomaly surprising us.

Looking at the design, of the red label tents a Nallo GT strikes me as the worst for snow loading, that’s a lot of tent for not much pole!

[Pigeon]

Can some kind soul, who has used an Unna, please tell me (just a guess) the approximate angle between both the endwalls and sidewalls and the floor of the inner?

Thanks in advance.

[Theo Diekmann]

With the Hillebergs I always wonder whether the fabrics are overkill or not. Are there reports of one of the fabrics ripping in severe conditions?

I ask partly because I really like the looks & sound of the Anjan 2. I prefer more “airy” tents over warm ones anyway and I could equip it with beefier poles if needed – on condition that the fabrics hold up to higher demands just fine.

I realize that my question is kind of blurry because I don’t really specify the intended use of the tent, I’m really just curious if the fabrics have ever been the weak point on any Hilleberg.

And one additional question concerning the Anyan: Is it true that the revised the design and lowered the outer fly a little? In the first versions it seemed to be really high (as in: Splashes might wet the inner tent).

[r m]

Out of curiosity I looked up the weights and tear strengths of kerlon:

• Kerlon 2000    78g/m^2    20kg
• Kerlon 1800    55g/m^2    18kg
• Kerlon 1200    49g/m^2    12kg
• Kerlon 1000    40g/m^2    8kg
• Kerlon 600      26g/m^2    6kg

For comparision:

• MLD pro silnylon is “about” 54g/m^2
• Typical weight cuben fibre for shelters is 25.4g/m^2

http://us.hilleberg.com/EN/our-tents/materials.php

http://www.mountainlaureldesigns.com/fabric.php

http://www.zpacks.com/materials.shtml

 

[Stephen M]

Yes the Anjan fly sheet is lowered, I have had my mark 2 model out in some horrendous rain and no splash back.

Just to note that the Hilleberg 10mm poles will not work as the Anjan uses poles with locking nubs (probably not the correct term)

 

 

[Theo Diekmann]

r m,

Thanks for the research! Comparing the weights doesn’t really say too much, though, does it? Values for the tear strength of Pro Silnylon (and whatever competitors use) would be really interesting, here!

 

Stephen,

Thanks for the heads up concerning the different poles – That really is a major bummer. I’ll look into the specific design more closely someday to see if there might be a ‘quick and dirty fix’…

[Stuart .]

Kerlon 600 is no more. Nosing through the 2016 catalog PDF version this weekend, I saw all mention of it gone. I called and spoke with Shannon this morning, and she confirmed that the Enan is now made from Kerlon 1000. When I asked why, she said that it was too difficult for the seamstresses and seamsters to work with. They reluctantly retired the material after the last production run of the Enan. One other change they made to the 2016 Enan was to replace the tri pegs with the more capable V pegs. I always thought the tri pegs were worthless, and the total weight savings was only 16g. It seems the catalog shows the changes, but until they completely run out of Kerlon 600 Enan inventory, the website still shows the old specification.

[Crow]

Took the Keron 3 out in winter storm Jonas, where we got 30 inches of snowfall.  Dug out the tent before going to sleep, but woke up to this:

But behold, an undamaged tent emerged!

[Stephen M]

Good job.

Kerons rock.

 

[Author]

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