UL Tent Vs. Traditional

[c c]

Any thoughts on the Golite Shangrila 2 vs. Tarptent Double Rainbow?

[c c]

Also, is it fair to say that a single wall tent is less warm inside than a double wall?

[Rakesh Malik]

"Also, is it fair to say that a single wall tent is less warm inside than a double wall?"

Potentially, yes. It's always possible to defeat the tent though, with the simple expedient of closing up the vents and breathing inside it. :)

Closed up, the tent will trap a layer of mostly still air between the two skins, which does provide some insulation. The need to maintain airflow in order to fend off condensation means that you'll be letting the heat bleed out through convection – that's of course why so many tents have low+roof vents… You lose heat, but gain circulation, which helps you to mitigate condensation.

With one wall, you don't have that extra layer of air, so you get less insulation.

Even a mesh inner will give you some extra warmth just by slowing down the airflow through the tent, but a nylon inner will trap more than a mesh inner.

[Mike W]

>> is it fair to say that a single wall tent is less warm inside than a double wall? <<

I think that depends largely on the tent design of both the single wall and double wall tents in question. Most single wall tents are built to be quite "airy" to reduce condensation and in my area, they can turn into a very cold wind tunnel. Some single wall shelters can be pegged down tight to the ground and this will eliminate the the wind-tunnel effect but can increase the condensation build up considerably, so a bit of a trade off.

If a double wall tent has a combination of higher non-mesh sides and partial mesh on the inner tent (like the original Copper Spur and Fly Creek), they trap heat a little better because the wind doesn't pass through quite so easily but still keep the condensation away from you.

I find that my free standing tents take up less space than the non-free standing because the angle of the guy lines can be a bit less severe (the poles hold up the tent not the guy outs), so less space required.

Another consideration for me was that I do a lot of base camping and day trips so I like to have my trekking poles with me. This means I have to take the optional poles to support a free standing tent, so the weight saving over my double wall is reduced considerably. I like the idea of a free standing tent but unless I go to a cuben free standing hybrid, I'm really not gaining much with a non-free standing single wall tent.

[James Marco]

UL tents, being single wall, are colder and prone to more "visable" condensation.
By visable condensation I mean the kind that will eventually drip down the sides onto the floor, wipe on your head, or shower your head with ice in cold weather.

Double walled shelters are warmer. Generally the person is protected from draughts and breezes not picked up by the fly, bugs & critteres. The second inner tent (bug mesh, light duty fabric or heavier non-silicone nylon) usually has a floor. Condensation still happens, but is generally not "visable" to the sleeper.

A single walled tent only has a single layer of insulation. with no air space. A double walled shelter has an air space between the two tent surfaces, again, adding insulating value. This is, of course, offset by the need for ventilation. Soo you can only get 10-15C degree temp differential out of most tents. Single wall tents are usually closer to 5-7 degree differential. Roughly about twice as warm in a double walled tent as opposed to a single walled tent.

Staking is a problem with either. A good stake will hold well at about a 30 degree angle. The closer to a 90 degree stress on the stake, the stronger the staking pount, generally. Longer guy lines set near the top of a dome help more than those set near vertical tent walls. Wind hammer, gusts and vagrant eddies, will loosen stakes (a small elastic bungie will help minimize this and increase the effective staking angle.) Heavy winds will cause them to fail. I am ignoring poles and tent materials.

Double walled tents are generally used mostly by the light weight people. Those with less than 20 pound base loads. They generally weigh about 2/3 more than a single walled shelter. Cuben double walled shelters are rediculously expensive as of today. Single walled shelters are used mostly by the UL weight people, those with less than 10 pound base loads. (Note that this says nothing about the trip duration, nor, activities planned.) Per title, you knew that…

[Inaki Diaz de Etura]

While it depends also a lot on the particular tent's design, yes, a double wall is warmer than a single wall. It can be so for two reasons: first, it's as obvious as being two walls of fabric between occupants and the outside… this may mean little if camping under a thick tree but may mean a lot under a heat sink like the night, cloudless sky.

Second it's ventilation: ventilation is needed to mitigate condensation. On a single wall, ventilation goes through the living quarters, there's no other place. On a double wall, ventilation can (and if the design is good, will) go through the space in-between walls, providing for a warmer living space.

Condensation is another tricky subject clearly related to warmth. We mitigate condensation through ventilation which in turn lowers the temp through convection and this promotes condensation :) Still, the net effect is usually to our advantage. A double wall will keep heat inside and be more prone to condensation on the inside of the outer wall !! but it's easier to ventilate so (if the design is good) is usually less prone to condensation overall.

[Devon Cloud]

I think here that while we are discussing this we have to think about what would happen if condensation occurred and dampened all your gear… then you would not be more insulated at all with the double wall. Yes, condensation is less in a double wall (in theory) however your inner wall will collect the condensation and puddle it in your tent somewhere. If that happens to be where you are sleeping you are in big trouble.

Single wall free-standing tents in my opinion are the way to go. I don't use tents to keep me warm, just dry. My sleeping bag needs to be warm enough to do that on it's own. If I mis-judge the weather and am cold then I add layers of clothing and boil water, add it to a nalgene bottle, and put it in my sleeping bag closed which will add a good ten degrees easy to my bag. This will last all night. If you keep it between your legs near your main arteries it will keep your core temperature up too.

bottom line, don't rely on your tent for warmth… doing so will lead you to be cold and most likely damp since the heat in your tent is what is causing the condensation in the first place. Ventilation is key to stop the condensation.

[c c]

Thanks again for everyone's wonderful insights- I'm learning a lot.

Any last thoughts between the Golite Shangri-la 2 vs. Tarptent Double Rainbow? If I go the single wall route I'm considering these two tents

If I go traditional, I'm considering the BA Fly Creek UL2 tent or possibly the MSR Carbon Reflex 2 (it's selling for a discounted price here locally)

Any thoughts on the tents mentioned above would be greatly appreciated

[Devon Cloud]

This tent is a bit more in weight but the design is so much more flexible than the 2 that I would suggest spending the extra bucks. furthermore, your main concern (it seems) is condensation… this tent does not have the walls separated from the floor wich could mean sleeping in a puddle… not to mention the ability to change the tent features for whatever trip you go on.

Just my two cents worth.

[Inaki Diaz de Etura]

> your inner wall will collect the condensation and puddle it in your tent somewhere

I don't agree with this. It may happen but it's not something to be expected for a well designed tent.

Overall, condensation is less of an issue in double wall tents. Not only because of the physical separation but because on average there's less condensation on double walls. I use single walls myself almost exclusively but aware that it's a compromise.

The expected location(s) will be an important factor in the validity of that compromise. Double walls are more interesting in damp & cool climates. The OP says Utah: that's rather dry, a very good play field for single walls, imo.

> this tent does not have the walls separated from the floor

If you mean the Shangri-La's, all of them, they're totally modular and all the elements can be used on their own or in combination with the others. Fly and floor are two separate pieces

[Rakesh Malik]

"I don't agree with this. It may happen but it's not something to be expected for a well designed tent."

My experience matches this one.

Particularly with modern tents, the ventilation is getting to be very well designed, so they don't have anywhere near the condensation problems of older tents. You can pitch the fly low enough to keep the wind out, and still set yourself up with good flow-through ventilation in the better tents.

The Carbon Reflex is a nice tent… I tried one out, but I prefer tarps, or I'd probably using a CR now.

I don't know whether or not there's a mostly nylon inner available for the ShangriLa 3 from GoLite, but you can probably get one custom made easily enough, so it would be very versatile. I think it's possible to pitch GoLite's inner by itself also, so you can have it your way, and take advantage of nice nights while keeping the bugs at bay :)

[Devon Cloud]

" this tent does not have the walls separated from the floor

If you mean the Shangri-La's, all of them, they're totally modular and all the elements can be used on their own or in combination with the others. Fly and floor are two separate pieces"

No, this was not meant for all of them, just shangrila 2. I own the shangrila 3 and love it specifically for the modular use it gives you.

[Paul Hatfield]

If this is going to be for two people, I think the best choice for a beginning backpacker is one of these:
Big Agnes Copper Spur UL 3
Tarptent Scarp 2

Sometimes the REI Quarter Dome T2 Tent goes on sale for $200, so that would be a cheaper option.

All three are very flexible, well-rounded tents that will work well under most conditions.

In my opinion, the Shangri-La's are not very convenient when you use the inner nest.

You should check out backpackinglight's State of the Market Report: Two-Person Double-Wall Tents (2010). They make recommendations for intended uses. The Copper Spur series has lost some weight since then I think.

[Piney]

The current Shangrila 3, at least the one I just got, is not fully modular. The nest is a floor and bug net sewn together so it is now basically a traditional two walled shelter.

[Inaki Diaz de Etura]

There used to be three pieces for the Shangri-La 3: the fly, the floor (with no bug net) and the nest, which is as you describe floor+bug net. You could buy any of the 3 pieces separately. It seems they now only sell the whole package which includes fly and nest. I also believe it used to be the same for the other Shangri-Las but I can only speak first hand for the 3, which is the one I have: fly and (no bug net) floor.

FWIW, I never liked the stock floor because it's far from lightweight. I made a copy in lighter materials (fabric, cords, buckles) that turned out half the weight and it's the one I regularly use now. The fly is quite fine as it is.

[Brad Fisher]

CC,

I would suggest you make a list of what things are important to you in a shelter and the conditions you will encounter. Their is no perfect shelter for everyone. Could of things;

– Are you looking at a 2 person for the extra room or because you will share the shelter
– If you are sharing the shelter I would select the REI T2 (I just made that decision for a shelter I will share with my brother in law). It has two doors, vestibules for gear and is pretty light. Would not take it for just me however
– I like side entrance because it is easy for me to get in and out than a end entry. I also have the option to do some cooking in a light rain (depends on the shelter)
– If you get much rain how to do feel about dealing with it. I have road out some pretty heavy storms with high winds and heavy rain under my Trailstar without any issue. Only issue is getting in and out of the shelter on the soggy ground. Not a big issue for some, but those that need to get up a few times during the night that can be a pain
– How are the bugs in your area. If you pick a Trailstar, Tarp, Duomid, etc you will need to deal with a bug bivy or inner net. I have both and they are a real pain to me. However many love them and have no issues.
– In cold weather and wind things like bivy, natural wind blocks, site selection become more important.
– In the late fall, winter and early spring you have a lot of time in the shelter. Are you a guy who can sleep for 12 hours or do you like to chill in the shelter for awhile (journal, cards, read, etc). You might like a little more room if you do these. If you go to bed and sleep 12 straight hours then you have a lot of options.

I would suggest thinking through conditions. You don't pick a shelter based on good weather/conditions. They all work in those cases. Couple things;
– you just hiked a long day, its now raining and getting cold fast. You need to setup shelter, cook food, hang bear bag, etc.
– first setup shelter on wet ground. If you shelter doesn't have a floor, then you need to put down you ground sheet
– now it's rainy, ground is wet and you are under the shelter on groundsheet. Now you have to get bed ready, put on sleep clothes
– You ok doing this in a floor less or would you prefer being in a floored shelter doing this.
– It's time to get up and start hiking. It's rainy. Now you have to pack up your backpack and hit the trail.

In my opinion, single or double wall is not the question because I think either will work. To me extra pound of weight doesn't really make a difference and doesn't effect my performance. It all comes down to what works for you and fits your style. Now you have to pick where you spend the extra weight and don't fall into the trap of just carrying extra weight.

For the record I have several shelters and pick based on the forecast and my mood.

MLD Trailstar
MLD Solomid
MLD Grace Duo
MSR Carbon Reflex 1
REI T2
BD Lighthouse
GG One

Just my two cents and many others here have more experience.

Brad Fisher

[c c]

Brad
thank you very much for your insights-I appreciate it

[Devon Cloud]

I would have to agree with Brad on most of what he said there. That being said, not all of us can afford a tent for every occasion, and purchasing a tent that gives you options on what to bring is a good way to go unless you are planning to own several tents.

To me, the Shangri La 3 is still the way to go on this front. I did see a post that stated the mosquito nest is hard to deal with.. I am assuming this is because it requires you use either the one pole the tent comes with or treckning poles to hold it up at the center of the tent… this is true, however having to sleep around the pole is not hard on this tent and still gives you room for two people and all your gear.

Just my opinion of course, but if you are looking for a tent that can give you the most use all year around, my choice is still the Shangrila 3. As Brad stated though, if you are planning on aquiring a tent for every season/weather type, then there are better options for each condition as there are tents that specialize in that one condition.

For me, I no longer use a tent if I can help it. I owned about ten tents, and sold all but the Shangrila 3. It's options was my reasoning for keeping it… If I cannot use a hammock (either because there are not enough hanging locations or the area does not allow the hanging of hammocks), the Shangrila is what I turn to because it provides me the most options to handle almost any type of condition (even if it does not handle each condition the best, it still performs great in each).

[eric schultz]

I am attempting to decrease my pack weight. I tried "The Scout" from Big Agnes and it had too much condensation for me. I have always used a traditional tent for backpacking. I am currently looking at a canopy tent and bug net from Bearpaw Wilderness Design. Would this be a good beginning trasition to a tarp? Is there anything to consider when making the switch? I only have experience with traditional free standing tents.
Thanks
Eric

[Franco Darioli]

Just in case someone reads all of the thread, I like to address this comment :
"If you do not use trekking poles, then there is really no choice. You have to use regular tent"
Most, if not all, of the brands that sell trekking pole supported tents also sell "substitute" poles.
They can vary in weight and weatherworthiness but they are there.
At Tarptent now we have two types.
The LW 2 oz or so 8.7mm type and the 4oz 12.4 mm "vertical poles" type.
The latter are much stiffer, similar to the standard CF trekking poles .

Quick tip : if you set the tent up with the pole at a slight angle, when the fabric relaxes ,put them straight to take up some of the slack.

[Stephen M]

Franco,

That's good to know about the 12.4mm poles as I sometimes go on trips where trekking poles are not needed at all.

:-)

[Justin Baker]

Or you can take the high point of a shelter and tie it off to a tree branch above you.

[Stephen M]

What if there are no trees?

[Jerry Adams]

"Quick tip : if you set the tent up with the pole at a slight angle, when the fabric relaxes ,put them straight to take up some of the slack."

Or, have a flat rock, piece of bark, or wood, and when you want to take slack out in the morning stick it under pole.

A couple hours after I set it up it can get slack and I can just tighten guylines, but sometimes I'll get up in the morning and it will be slack so raising pole a little keeps off me walls that are wet with condensation. Or if they're weighted down with snow.

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