nature=church?

"Which to attend to first, the angel or the anchovy. Decisions, decisions…….."

Be like the old bull. Take it slow and easy, and attend to them both. ;)

"I'll consult Webster's for assistance…"

Too late, my friend.

"I don't know about anyone else, but thanks to grampa I'm suddenly feeling quite 'frisky,' and rather hungry as well. Which to attend to first, the angel or the anchovy. Decisions, decisions…….."

I went for the pizza, myself. I just finished some home made pizza that Libby made for me and it was grand, let me tell you.

@Tom — Useless of you to hide behind 'changing language definitions'. Your stance was simply not supportable:

"What, if anything, one chooses to call it, is up to the the individual!"

@ Steven:

""It's the things you said about "an essence or a spirit that is greater than your life force". You can't prove that to anyone who believe that humans are merely animals — maybe with a higher IQ."

sure, simply ask them to hop on one foot and count to four. then ask them if any other animals can do that. my cat might be able to do it, but he could care less and would just lick his crouch in defiance."

I don't think that will convince any skeptic. :)

Ben, language is a method for communicating, and often the meaning of words is pushed, stretched, and torn. Poets are renowned for this.

Read some Shakespeare, it is the English language just in a syntax we are unaccustomed to in this age. The language of a 17 year old will be equally incomprehensible yet will be perfectly understood by the intended audience, even if they aren't down with all the words, it's the spirit of the usage that defines the word within the context.

Actually, Steve, I just finished reading various articles that came up from googling "can atheists be spiritual" — or something to that effect. Most are affirmative. So pushed, stretched, and torn along… we must.

I can accept the pushing and stretching. We all have to — or risk becoming anachronistic. It's the idiocy that 'anyone can call things any way they want' that I find troubling. Just too much ego there.

Early on in thread, someone quoted survivalist Tom Brown saying brain waves change soon upon exposure to nature. This is key, I think to the rejuvenative effect nature has on us. And it ties in to the Einstein quote about the science and spirituality must agree; otherwise it's BS science, BS spirituality, or both.
It's all waves, right? Energy waves. Our senses only allow in a small subset of the energy waves surrounding us, so how are we supposed to know what's really going on? When I'm hiking, it sometimes seems like a psychedelic experience in which even the rocks and wind are alive.
A lot of anthropomorphism in this thread, which is not surprising, but also not very likely. Eckhart Tolle recommends substituting the word infinite for god. ("My inifinite is bigger than your infinite.")

"I have a question for Nick at this point by way of giving a concrete example. I once read that African American slang evolves at a very rapid pace, to the point where words often acquire a different meaning in a matter of months."

Tom,

Slang has always fascinated me, and frustrated me too. I hate its use most of the time, especially in business. For 30 years I hired a lot of teenagers at their first job, so I heard a lot of slang. Today I do a lot of work with businesses to help them to recruit and retain employees, which is a challenge with Gen Y and Z. So I hear a lot of recent slang. (BTW my most hated slang is "My bad").

Often slang is sourced by social/economic groups and sub-cultures, and mostly starts with young people, sometimes filtering up a little to older people, sometimes remaining in the group, and sometimes moving to the mainstream of society.

I think you are right about the speed of slang gaining popularity in parts of the Black sub-culture. However, we must keep in mind that some music is generally part of and targeted to the Black community, such as Soul, Hip-Hop, and Rap. This is unique. We also have Black entertainment mediums such as BET that are targeted to a Black audience. To remain relevant, many of these entertainers keep their roots in the Black community, so this is part of the answer.

We will probably see even faster and more widespread movement of slang with all the social media… perhaps we already have. "Tweet," Wall, Like, etc.

I think one of the most impressive movement of slang was in Southern California in the 1960s. Surfing was big (few kids really surfed though) and cars really became ingrained in the culture as large numbers of teenage baby boomers started driving. Then we had the Vietnam War, Hippies, and the Drug Culture… all of which were a large part of the California culture. Most TV entertainment shows originated in California, and we had Southern California music groups like the Beach Boys, Jan and Dean, etc. singing about surfing and cars. Protests at Berkeley, Hippies in the San Francisco and LA areas. All of this was a huge cultural revolution. A while back a friend sent me a list of 1960s California slang. Some was from early decades, some unique to the culture and some remains. I remember much of the slang popping up and gaining acceptance in a matter of months. Normally when terms acquire new meaning for a specific field or area of interest, and is only used by that group we would call it "jargon." Although most people in California never surfed, the jargon was often used by these people, so I call it slang :)

I hope no one objects to the long list. I find it interesting and remember all of them… and my parents had no idea what most meant.

5-0-2: Drunk Driving (502 was the State penal code number for the drunk driving infraction at that time).
A Drag: Someone or something that's boring.
A Gas: A lot of fun.
Acapulco gold: marijuana from SW Mexico
Acid head: LSD user
Acid: LSD
All show and no go: car with accessories but slow.
Anglin': Turning left and/or right on a wave.
Ape: get upset, i.e. “went ape”
Bad trip: bad acid trip
Bag: steal something.
Baggys/Baggies: Oversized, loose fitting boxer-type swim trunks worn for show or comfort by surfers.
Ball: have sex.
Barrel: The breaking motion of a perfect wave; a hollow channel formed inside a good wave when it breaks and curls over.
Beach Bunny: A girl who goes to the beach to watch surfing.
Bean Wagon: lowered car, usually Hispanic owned Chevy.
Beans: amphetamine; depressant; mescaline
Birth Control Seats: Bucket Seats in a car.
Bitchin’: Awesome, Exciting, , Good.
Blew the doors off: Easily beat the other car in a race.
Blotter: LSD
Blown Out: Winds blowing so hard as to chop up the surf and render it unridable.
Blown: A car engine that has a blower (supercharger) installed.
Body Surfing: Riding the waves without a surfboard.
Bogart: To "hog" something, usually a marijuana cigarette.
Bone Yard: Auto junk yard.
Boogie Board: Small torso sized board to ride waves in the surf (you laid on it).
Boogie: Leave.
Book: Leave the area.
Bookin': Going real fast, usually in a car.
Boss: A great or cool thing. Example
Bread: Money
Breaker: Any wave that breaks on the way to the beach.
Brew (Brewski): Beer
Brody Knob ("Suicide Knob"): A knob placed on your steering wheel allowing you to drive with one hand, leaving the other free to put around your date.
Brody: Also, Brody Out; to skid in a half circle with the brakes locked up.
Brown dots: LSD
Bug out: Leave the premises.
Bummed out: Depressed
Bummer: Depressing
Burn Rubber: To accelerate hard spinning the tires, making noise, and billows of smoke come from the rear of the vehicle.
Buttons: mescaline
Cactus: mescaline
California sunshine: LSD
Candyass: A real wimp or an uncool thing.
Cannon: huge marijuana cigarette
Channeled: A car body that has been lowered in respect to its frame, leaving the suspension as it is.
Cherry: Pristine, Totally Clean. Example: "That rod is cherry"!
Chicken: Two cars race toward each other; the first to pull to the side is the chicken (coward)
Chinese Fire Drill: Stop at a Red Light. Everyone on the Driver's side would run around and get in on the Passenger's side. Everyone on the Passenger's side would run around and get in on the Driver's side.
Choice: Really cool or bitchin’. Example: "That girl with the tight sweater is really choice."
Choose Off: To pick a fight or a race a car.
Chop: To cut down verbally.
Chopped: A section is cut out horizontally through the roof pillars of a car to lower the roof.
Church Key: Before poptops, a Beer or Soda can was opened with one of these.
Coke: cocaine
Cool: Nice.
Cop a Feel: Touch a girls "parts", sometimes pretending it was an accident
Copasetic: Very good; no problems.
Crash: Go to bed; go to sleep.
Cruising: Driving up and down the same street looking for races, girls, guys, etc.
Cube: Sugar cube with LSD in it
Curl: The portion of the wave that is spilling over and breaking.
Cut Back: To turn toward the breaking part of the wave.
Cut out: To pull out of the wave, like kicking out.
Decked: A term used to indicate that the trunk handle had been removed, the holes filled, sanded smooth and primed.
Deuce: A 1932 Ford.
Dibs: Most always used with "Got". i.e., I "got dibs" on that
Ding: A hole, crack, dent, or scratch on the surface of a surfboard.
Ditch: Skip a school day without permission; also, leave someone behind as in "Let's ditch this guy".
Doobie: marijuana
Dots: LSD or mescaline
Drag: To race another car.
Dropping: bottom turn, climbing to the wave's crest, then radically cutting back
Eat It: To fall off of a surfboard (also see "Wipe Out").
F**kin': This was simply the vulgar form of, "I concur".
Face: The unbroken wall, surface, or nearly vertical front of a wave.
Far Out: Excellent.
Fink: A tattle tale.
Five Finger Discount: Anything obtained by theft.
Flat Top with Fenders: A flat top with long sides.
Flat Top: A very short haircut usually cut extra close on top.
Flip Flops: Thongs (that went on your feet)
Flippers: Dodge Lancers or Olds Fiesta Hub Caps.
Flower Child: A Hippie
Fox: An outstanding looking girl or woman.
Freak Out: Temporary loss of control due to an unpleasant event.
Funky: Neat, Cool; also gone bad. Example: I think that milk is funky.
Fuzz: The Police
Glasspacks: Mufflers that are packed with fiberglass to muffle the sound.
Glassy: A smooth water surface condition caused by absence of local winds.
Go All The Way: Have sex with.
Going Steady: If you were "Going Steady", you were dating only one special person.
Goofy-Foot: Riding a surfboard with the right foot forward (left foot forward is the more common
Greaser: A guy that used too much grease in his hair, sometimes referred Latinos.
Gremmie: A rookie surfer.
Groovy: Nice, "Cool" or Neat. Used commonly among hippies in the 60's.
Ground Swell: Large waves generated by distant storms.
Hairy: Large; out of control.
Hang a BA: pull your pants down and hand your butt out the car window.
Hang Five/Ten: To place five (or ten) toes over the nose of the surfboard (also see "Toes on the Nose").
Hang Loose: Relax; Take it easy.
Hauls “Ass”: A car that really moves.
Heavies: Very big waves usually higher than 12 feet.
Heavy: Deep, Cool, Chaotic, Sad, Controversial
Hep: With it. A person who understands the situation.
Hip: Very good,cool.
Hit the Surf: To go surfing.
Hodad: A non:surfer, usually someone who just hangs around the beach.
Hot-Dogging: Fancy surfing done by a skilled surfer.
Huarache Sandals: Leather sandals worn by surfers with a sole made from tire treads.
Jam: To leave the area.
Jesus Boots: Sandals.
Kahuna: The Hawaiian god of sun, sand, and surf.
Kick Out: To push down on the tail of a surfboard to lift and turn the nose over the top of the wave.
Kipe: To steal.
Knots: Calluses, or calcium deposits, just below the knee and on the tops of the foot caused by kneeling on the surfboard.
Kook:
Kowabunga: Wow! Great!
Lay A Patch/Strip: To accelerate leaving a strip or patch of rubber behind on the road.
Lay it on me: Speak your piece.
Lay Rubber: To leave some rubber on the street while accelerating in a vehicle
Lay some scratch: To burn rubber in a vehicle.
Levis: Formerly known as blue jeans worn by some surfers (genericized the brand name).
Lid: 1 ounce of marijuana
Loaded: Intoxicated.
Lowered: To drop a car all the way around.
Make Out: Usually a kissing session in a parked car at a Drive In or other secluded place.
Midnight Auto Supply: Car parts obtained through theft..
Mirror Warmer: Usually, a piece of pastel blue or pink cashmere that was attached to elastic and was placed around the perimeter of your inside rear view mirror; sometimes a garter. It was usually your girl friends idea.
Moon: To drop your pants, bend over, and show your bare butt.
Moons (Baby Moons): Chrome hubcaps that were smooth and domed. They fit the inner part of the wheel, leaving room for beauty rings.
Nose: The bow or front end of a surfboard.
Orange Sunshine: LSD
Outside Break: The area farthest from shore where the waves are breaking.
Outta Sight: Fantastic, Awesome.
Pad: Someone's house.
Pants: An activity where usually two or more boys physically remove the pants from another boy so as to cause him embarrassment in a group setting.
Passion Pit: Drive:in Theater
Pearl: Driving the nose of a surfboard under water to stop or slow down the ride. The term is borrowed from "pearl diving."
Peel Out: (See Lay A Patch/Strip).
Pendleton: A brightly colored plaid wool or flannel shirt worn by some surfers (genericzed the brand name).
Pig: Cop
Pipeline: A surf spot on the North Shore of Oahu, Hawaii, between Waimea Bay and Sunset Beach; also called Banzai Pipeline.
Port Holer: 57 T:bird
Primo: First class.
Pull Out: To steer a surfboard over or through the back of a wave to end a ride.
Race for Pinks: Also race for pink slips. Meaning two people race and the winner gets the others car.
Rake: To lower the front end of a car.
Reds: Barbiturate
Right On: I agree.
Righteous: Extremely fine, beautiful.
Ripped Off: To have something stolen, or to have stolen something.
Rule: As in, "Hodads Rule"; To take ownership of
Sanitary (or Sano): Usually referring to someones car, or part of one’s car, as being pristine.
Scarf: To eat very fast.
Set: A group of waves.
Shape: The configuration, or form, of a wave.
Shoot the Curl: Riding a surfboard through, or in and out of, the hollow part of the wave formed as it crests over.
Shoot the Pier: Riding a surfboard in between the pilings of a beachside pier.
Shoot the Tube: (see "Shoot the curl")
Shore Break: Waves break very close to the beach.
Shotgun: A place of honor in the front seat of a car nearest the door.
Sidewalk Surfing: Skateboarding.
Skag: An ugly girl.
Skeg: The fin at the tail end of a surfboard.
Soup: The foamy part of the broken wave; the white water.
Souped:up: A car that's had the engine modified to go fast.
Spaz: Used as a put down, or to describe someone who was acting retarded.
Sponge: Everything you get comes from those around you.
Stacked: Well “endowed” girl.
Stoked: Happy; excited; contented.
Stoned: Intoxicated
Submarine Races: A place at the beach, where you would park facing the ocean and wait for the Submarines to start racing. Of course they wouldn't show up, but while you were waiting, you'd make out.
Surf Bunny: A surfer's girlfriend; a female surfer (also see "Beach Bunny").
Surfari: A surfing trip; a hunt for good surf.
Surfs Up: Waves are breaking and surfable.
Swells: Unbroken waves moving in groups of similar height and frequency.
T Bucket: A two:seat hot rod made from a Model T Ford.
Tail: The stern or rear end of a surfboard.
Takeoff: The start of a ride on a wave.
Taking Gas: To wipe out.
Thanks to Ron Stowe for this one.
The A: A&W Drive
The Bird: “Give the Finger.”
Thongs: In the 60's, thongs were something you wore on your feet (flip:flops).
Three On The Tree: A car with a three speed manual transmission and the shifter on the steering column.
Towncraft: JC Penny heavy cotton T-Shirt worn by some surfers (genericized the brand name).
Trollin': Cruising the Boulevard looking for girls.
Tube: The hollow portion of a wave formed when the crest spills over and makes a tunnel or hollow space in front of the face of the wave. (The Green Room)
Walking the Board: Walking back and forth on the surfboard to maintain control.
Walking the Nose: Moving forward on the board toward the front or nose.
Wax: Substance applied to the top, or deck, of surfboards for traction.
Wedge, The: A famous, but dangerous, body surfing spot located at the tip of the Balboa peninsula in Newport Beach, California.
Wicked: Term of Admiration.
Wipe out: To fall off a wave while surfing.
Woodie: A station wagon, made in the '40s and '50s, with wood paneling on the sides.
Woody: An erection.
Zits: Pimples.

totally :)

I think it is a big mistake to settle for dictionaries as the final authority on the meanings of words. Dictionaries are merely references, a gathering of interpretations by people who spend a lot of time trying to, and often failing, affix an agreed upon definition that everyone can be happy with (believe me, I know. My father was one of the original scientific lexicographers for the first edition of the American Heritage Dictionary). Dictionaries take years to gather information and publish. By the time the content finally gets out there for the consumers, much of the information is already outdated. There is also the contemporary social climate to consider when dictionaries are drawn up. When my father was working on the American Heritage Dictionary, one of the big questions at the time was whether the word "f**k" ought to be included. Because of the taboo against using it, even the definition, which is already quite convoluted because f**k has so many connotations, was extremely difficult to get a consensus on. It was only when, through a spy that they had planted at Webster, it was discovered that Webster had decided to forego including the word "f**k that the AHD went ahead and put it in.

So you see, dictionaries are as fickle and swayed by the winds of change and sentiment as any other human endeavor, and thus cannot be called completely reliable sources.

As to the idea of spiritual… I think what is happening today is a new development in how people see what they are feeling and experiencing, with a lot of deviation and breaking away from established ideas of what "religious" or "spiritual" mean. The feelings are so new and untested, with such large numbers of people experiencing them, but still not finding the language to express them. That is why a lot of spiritual language often relies on, say, Asian words like "Zen" or Native American words like "koyaanisqattsi" to express what they are trying to say, but those words still seem inadequate and slightly pretentious. "Spiritual" is one of those words which, because it hails from a long history that those who use it are familiar with, comes naturally when trying to describe what the users feel, but because it also hails from a set rigged religious tradition, carries the connotations that Ben is referring to. The new usage, however, by those who insist they are not religious or are atheist intends to describe something else that, perhaps the word spiritual does not adequately address. Yet English, being steeped in Christianity, does not provide a better word. Until a more accurate word evolves, this is what we are stuck with. I think it behooves you, Ben, to not try to force others to stick to one way of using the word if others feel that your definition deprives them of what they are trying to convey.

To give an example. Ben, in Taiwan you probably have those tall, silvery, golden grasses with the feathery tufts of seeds at the top, that come out in the fall and cover the hillsides, right? They have them in Japan, too, and are called "Susuki". They are a very deep, spiritual part of Japan and always invoke a certain sense of the season, of sadness, always include the image of the harvest moon, and are always associated with the ending of a love affair. When a Japanese reads the name of this grass all these things are immediately conveyed, without any lapse of time. I think Taiwanese probably experience much the same thing in their traditional writings. However, when you try to translate, into English say, a book or a set of poems that focus on these grasses, which don't exist anywhere else in the world, you come upon a stumbling block… how do you convey what the history behind the name of "Susuki" has built up for East Asians to an audience that has never seen the plant and can't even picture it, let alone come up with the added elements of the season, the loss of love, and the moon? Translations that I've read have translated the name of the grass to a similar species, "Elephant Grass", but it is totally different. The environment is different, the way the plant looks is different, even the emotions associated with elephant grass are different. So how do you get this across? You can't. Without the background that those who live with the plant have created, the name of the plant has no literary or poetic meaning. In order to get the audience to understand the what is meant the story either has to be told, the audience must experience the plant for themselves, or something new and accurate must be created, a very difficult task.

I think this is partly how the word "spiritual" works. The landscape of feelings and emotions that, for instance atheists, experience, the word cannot be translated using given, traditional Christian meanings. Something new has to be applied, including a new way of listening to the word.

"As to the idea of spiritual… I think what is happening today is a new development in how people see what they are feeling and experiencing"…

New development in how people perceive their feelings and experience? Really? My view, technology changes — but our human nature stays pretty much the same.

That language changes is common sense. We all know that. My point is the conscious attempt of some to co opt the words to fit what they really aren't. I used the two examples earlier:

1. Christian Scientists
2. Spiritual atheists

To me, even the most diehard Christians — the ones who interpret their bible literally — still see something solid in science. And rather than embrace the knowledge, they deny it, but also co opt it as their own.

Similarly, we are all humans. We can be moved to an overall sense of joy and well being. The religionists have long ago come up with the concepts of soul, spirit and attribute those feelings as being animated by a higher power. Hence, spiritual. Those who deny the existence of any power, however, cannot deny their feelings. But what is animating those feelings? Spirit? What spirit? They deny it and co opt it because they cannot ignore it.

So, yes, language creep. But IMO, that still doesn't make you what you aren't.

I don't think so, Ben. I think you are just being contrary for contrary's sake and refusing to allow other people to interpret things outside of your narrow definition. Speaking as someone who doesn't believe that Jesus was anything other than just a regular man, but nevertheless a man who seems to have had great insight, he offered a different way of seeing things at that time. Now there is something new developing, that is growing out of science and the accumulation of experience of many people outside of the traditional realms, and the ones who see things this way are looking for a new language and alternative way of expressing this, without the outdated confines of traditional dogma. From the way I see your stance, you are simply refusing to give credence to anyone else's legitimacy of thought, because if you do, you will be casting doubt upon your fast held beliefs.

Unless, by saying that our human nature stays pretty much the same, you are implying that change is not possible, and that all the teachings you hold so dear actually come to naught (since in their very definition, they require that individual make a fundamental change in their outlook), and that fundamental growth is simply impossible?

You cannot profess to be open-minded and willing to actually hear the truth in what others say, while at the same time denying them and yourself the opportunity to entertain the possible truth in what they are saying.

Why split hairs about your definition of spirituality if others see it differently from you? Why does the word "spirituality" have to necessarily connote "spirit"? Why can it not connote simply a fuller, more connected, holistic sense of being a self that is alive, and when you can feel that connectedness that becomes something profound and "spiritual"? Why is it necessary for you to limit the meaning of the word, when others clearly don't see that limit? Why is this so important for you to control? Surely, if you have found that which brings you happiness and fulfillment, it shouldn't matter either way what others think about their own beliefs? It shouldn't be such a threat to you. And yet it seems as if it is. I find this very confusing.

A big +1

"I don't think so, Ben. I think you are just being contrary for contrary's sake and refusing to allow other people to interpret things outside of your narrow definition. … Why split hairs about your definition of spirituality if others see it differently from you? Why does the word "spirituality" have to necessarily connote "spirit"? Why can it not connote simply a fuller, more connected, holistic sense of being a self that is alive, and when you can feel that connectedness that becomes something profound and "spiritual"? Why is it necessary for you to limit the meaning of the word, when others clearly don't see that limit? Why is this so important for you to control? Surely, if you have found that which brings you happiness and fulfillment, it shouldn't matter either way what others think about their own beliefs? It shouldn't be such a threat to you. And yet it seems as if it is. …"

Lets not lose sight of the fact that language is man-made and subject to change.

In the US we hike with boots. In the UK you open the boot of your car to get to your spare tire out. In the US some women wear bonnets to church. In the UK you open the bonnet to check the oil in your car.

For some people perhaps spirituality is simply inspiration. For an atheist, alone in the wilderness, perhaps nature inspires them to contemplate the cosmos, the origin of the universe, or their navel. It doesn't need to have a religious context.

Why is Christian Science an oxymoron? Are religion and science mutually exclusive? The Laws of Nature cannot be commanded, they cannot be changed.

I don't feel a sense of spirituality in nature. But the solitude and elements, much different from a city, society, or everyday life does often inspire me to stop and contemplate many things. Some would say this is spirituality.

I train salespeople. Language is only part of the communication process. Often a salesperson needs to ask funneling or probing questions to understand or clarify what the client is really saying or means. Dissecting the words does little to understand what the client is thinking or trying to communicate. Also, the salesperson needs to be cognizant of body movements, facial expression, etc. Pretty basic stuff.

I was amazed that I knew every one except for a few surfing terms given that I grew up in the Midwest. But hey no Chopper, no 1%er, no FTW, no 13, no Windowpane?

Quiver: Your collection of surfboards for all conditions
Gun: as in "Big Gun" the board in your "quiver" you use when "Big Wednesday" arrives
Moke: Derogatory, Someone of Hawaiian ancestry. Interestingly (or maybe not)this may be related to the term Moqui used for ancient "Anazazi" or Native Americans in general in the west/especially southwest??
Poi Pounder: see above
Haole: White Boy: as in "How you like I gon pound your head in Haole boy?" Think it generally means "foreigner" in Hawaiian
The Bull: Greg Noll
Blow: Leave; depart: as in "Let's Blow this pop stand
Gidget: A girl surfer or any cute blond resembling the original
Oz: Australia
Ozzie: Duh
Stick: another term for surfboard

There're also a slew of terms for the design and shaping of surfboards. For ex:
convex
concave
flair
feather
rocker

My bitchin stick has a concave nose for hangin' ten; lots of rocker and soft edges in the hips so it'll spin, and hard edges in the tail so it'll turn on a dime, especially coming off the bottom.

Cowabunga Moon-doggie! (50's 60's)

Shucka Bra! 70's ??

So MIguel, et. al….

Christian Scientists have full right to claim and demand acknowledgment from everyone else that they are scientists for no other reason than they see themselves as such?

And the Democratic Republic of Korea needs to be acknowledged as democratic because they claim to be?

I am still not convinced that people can use whatever terms they fancy. Er, I mean of course they can — but the substance of what they are describing remains unchanged. Applying a fanciful label doesn't make a package fancy. Just to be sure that folks understand I am assigning no values to this… let's also note that applying an ugly label doesn't make a package ugly either.

"For some people perhaps spirituality is simply inspiration. For an atheist, alone in the wilderness, perhaps nature inspires them to contemplate the cosmos, the origin of the universe, or their navel. It doesn't need to have a religious context."

Agree! So call the feelings inspirational! But not spiritual.

John,

Remember this was in the 60's and in So Cal. Chopper – no. You would see a few Triumphs and Harleys, but not much in the way of choppers until the 70's. Plus the Honda Dream and other models were taking over.

What's a windowpane.

Well Hunter S. Thompson recounts that the Hell's Angels were in the theaters watching The Wild One with Brando and modeled themselves on Lee Marvin in the movie. I myself had a subscription pre 1970 to Ed Roth's Choppers magazine which was not even sold on newsstands until much later. Windowpane much like blotter put acid on a minuscule 1/8 inch piece of clear plastic.

Cola,

The Bull: Greg Noll :)

No, just Greg. He had a shop near PCH and Pier Avenue in Hermosa Beach. Hap Jacobs (Jacobs Surfboards) and Bing Copeland (Bing Surfboards) had shops nearby. Knoll and Bing were friends and started surfing together as teenagers.

I Bought a custom board from Greg in 1962 (one year of paper route money). Cost $125 and was the smallest board on the beach at 8'6". Knoll never surfed unless we got big winter storms with waves 20+ feet. He usually surfed the big waves south of 23th street or near the north side of the Redondo Beach break water in those storms. We would go down and watch, but none of use hat the "you know what" to try. Last I heard he was operating a commercial fishing boat. Nice guy. Must be in his mid-seventies if he is still alive.

And wasn't it the cartoon character, Murf the Surf, in Surfer magazine that made "cowabunga" famous? I wonder if the magazine is still published and if the cartoon is still in it.

John,

The "choppers" were something that took off after WW 1, but in So Cal not such a big thing. Some of my childhood friends got into them in the 70's. And some of us (myself included) gravitated to motor cross, which was huge in the early 70's. The first Super Bowl of Motor Cross was at the LA Coliseum around 1973, and I think Marty Tripes (sp?) won the first two on Honda Elisores 250's. Ah, the days… :)

Also in the 70's Russ Collins (RC Engineering) gained fame with his huge drag bikes. Terry Vance (of Vance and Hines) was Collins' rider on the big bikes. Interestingly, my younger brother Gary and Vance were best friends in grade school. They never rode bikes, although Terry had a few mini-bikes. Today Gary owns Rifle Motorcycle Fairing company in San Luis Obispo. I think Vance is retired and wealthy :)

"@Tom — Useless of you to hide behind 'changing language definitions'. Your stance was simply not supportable:"

You seem to be the only one holding that opinion. As for hiding, you ought to know better than that, Ben; certainly not from someone like you. I have gone to considerable lengths to elaborate on my original statement, which you have apparently not read carefully, or perhaps it just went over your head, responded to your dogmatic arguments in good faith, and in turn have received treatment at first condescending, then obnoxious, and finally downright abusive. You need to take a long, hard look in the mirror and then clean up your act. I am not the first person in the community to be on the receiving end of this kind of abuse, nor am I likely to be the last, but this I can tell you: Eventually it will catch up with you.

"What, if anything, one chooses to call it, is up to the the individual!"

One last attempt at getting thru to you: If a person cannot find a known word, or words, to express their thought(s), they can either pick a known/defined word/words that best approximate it, make up a new word or words(which is done ALL the time in scientific and technical fields and was the way languages developed in the first place), give known words entirely different meanings, as in slang/dialects, or remain silent. I can't think of any other way to explain what I have been getting at, beginning with the quote above that you keep bringing up in a gratuitous attempt to destroy my position. Call it a limitation in my language skills, or whatever, but I stand by that quote and will continue to do so until someone comes up with a reasoned, dispassionate response that causes me to rethink my position. I am wide open to good faith criticism by anybody on this thread. I am not open to any more of your abuse.

Edited for phrasing.

"You cannot profess to be open-minded and willing to actually hear the truth in what others say, while at the same time denying them and yourself the opportunity to entertain the possible truth in what they are saying.

Why split hairs about your definition of spirituality if others see it differently from you? Why does the word "spirituality" have to necessarily connote "spirit"? Why can it not connote simply a fuller, more connected, holistic sense of being a self that is alive, and when you can feel that connectedness that becomes something profound and "spiritual"? Why is it necessary for you to limit the meaning of the word, when others clearly don't see that limit? Why is this so important for you to control? Surely, if you have found that which brings you happiness and fulfillment, it shouldn't matter either way what others think about their own beliefs? It shouldn't be such a threat to you. And yet it seems as if it is. I find this very confusing."

Beautiful posts, Miguel, both of them.