Cairns and LNT?

I didn't add the cairns I won't knock them down, they could be very old and destroying them could be like vandalizing an historic route. There are many places where cairns have been maintained for well over one hundred years.

excellent topic. i never thought of cairns and blazes in the LNT context.

i don't mind the smaller, 4-6 stone stacks, but some of the cairns i have seen are elaborate structures that are totally over the top. IMO, cairns need only exist where the trail is painfully difficult to follow, such as across talus, or where a side trail to an overlook leaves the main trail.

i have walked along trails that seemed to have a cairn every 10 feet on very well worn and obvious stretches. i have also walked along trails so poorly marked that i spent some time scratching my head. without fail, the farther from a road, the less well marked the trail.

i'm not sure if i would tear down a massive cairn, but i might kick over a series of redundant smaller ones. or i might not. quite the interesting dilemma you have presented.

Sounds a bit over-PC to me. The LNT ethic was created because we were destroying natural environments recklessly. If you truly want to LNT, stay out of nature all together.

A cairn isn't destroying anything, and in many if not most environments, is only having an aesthetic effect. A cairn is as much impact as a moose turning over a rock during its step. The fact of the matter is that we're critters of the woods as well, we're going to have an impact, we're going to change things.

If you're that bothered by every cairn, you're probably not spending enough attention enjoying the nature around you. If you suddenly come into an area with a bunch of cairns, there's probably a good reason for them, some sort of tradition, that might enrich your hike once you learn about that reason.

If we travel ethically, then we should see each other as critters of nature too. And cairns are a part of our nature. After all, cairns have been around for thousands of years – why should we suddenly decide we're not part of nature?

I knock them down as well.

I don't knock them down. If it's a matter of spoiling the "wilderness experience" then maybe one should just go in wilder, less traveled areas .

I suppose it's a violation of LNT but I just leave them

Even when someone has made a number of artistic stacks of rocks

On some routes they are very useful for finding the route

this is an old issue, and not a simple one, with a one size fits all solution.

if there's an existing clear trail, adding cairns is visual trash.

if there's an existing faint trail, where those who are not Danial Boone may wander astray, then maybe an occasional cairn is warranted.

if there is no trail, but its a well used area, then maybe cairns are justified in order to create a use trail and minimize damage to the environment.

if there is no trail in a seldom used wilderness setting, the question is more iffy in my mind.
do you use cairns to keep people from getting off course, or do you not have cairns in order to preserve each persons wilderness exploration experience?
here, I think it depends on the terrain, and you need to take it one spot at a time, no blanket rule.

not sure why there needed to be one cairn here let alone two. there is no trail here, just a great view of the valley.

not to be out done, a section of the AT has 107 blazes in a 2 mile stretch. i know, i counted them.

IMO, this is worse than the random cairns…

this is the shot facing the other direction. there are five blazes in this shot.

What makes this person the arbitrator of the wilderness? Creating cairns is an old and useful practice. There have very little visual impact. Hey we could still be chopping blazes into trees

I personally very seldom set them up. If a route is already makred with them and there is a bad gap in the marking I might. But when I'm in a new area off trail I sometimes find them useful.

This person seems to feel that if he can make it up to a spot without cairns then everyone else should be forced to do the same. What arrogance.

"This person seems to feel that if he can make it up to a spot without cairns then everyone else should be forced to do the same. What arrogance."

what arrogance it is to deem the location in need of a cairn. maybe the cairn builder isn't very good at using a map and built the cairn as crutch for others simply based on his inability and thus projecting them to all other wilderness users.

the arrogance cuts both ways.

i have never needed to build a cairn, but i have been grateful that someone had.

"I was struck last night when reading Chris Townsend's The Backpacker's Handbook, 4th Edition that he said he regularly destroys cairns as they detract from the wilderness experience."

I suppose one could take different viewpoints but who gave him or anyone else the right to determine what others' wilderness experience should be like? That is a rather selfish point of view.

it seems that both sides of this coin are selfish – building a cairn and removing it.

my future compromise solution is to never build one and to ignore the ones i see. i will just exist in nature.

The problem is people believing that a place visited by many people is wilderness.

"The problem is people believing that a place visited by many people is wilderness."

but it sez so on the map :)

Ben Nevis is the highest mountain in Scotland, and as such, is climbed by many folk who ordinarly never set foot outdoors. There is a well worn, clear trail to the summit. At least if there is no snow it is clear. Add snow and cloud, then it easy for someone un-used to navigating to become lost.
The Ben is surrounded by steep cliffs and gullys, popular with summer and winter climbers. Huge cornices form to catch the unwary. Every year folk were killed following the many cairns that littered the summit. Many of the cairns were made by climbers to help locate the top of routes.
Recently, all the cairns were removed, except for the ones showing the safe way down.

Remember that what may be a very obvious trail in summer, with no need for cairns, can be completely hidden in winter or spring unless there are cairns marking the route.

"The problem is people believing that a place visited by many people is wilderness."

"but it sez so on the map :)"

That made me chuckle!

Stephen has a good point. Its not just a matter of conviences. The more people are able to follow the real trail the less likely they are to beat scores of unofficial routes (not LNT).
I don't build cairns but I leave them where I find them. They may be there for a good reason that I'm unaware of (I've seen them used to help mark the boundaries of wildlife managment areas above treeline for example). They may be in a guidebook, or someone with poorer navigation skills than me may be using them to navigate.

Followed several cairns up the Porter's Creek manway in the Smokies a few weeks ago. I was pretty happy they were there, but didn't make any new ones at the sections that were hard to follow. Not being 100% certain helped make the trip even more exciting.

To knock them over because it "ruins the experience" seems kinda silly to me considering I probably picked three Happy Birthday! balloons on the way up.

Ryan

What would you call this? A pagan monument to the famous peak in the background?

I took this picture during an all day day hike. I had just fished a small lake just off camera (which is why my rod/reel is still assembled), when I noticed this 6' tall monument. I was getting ready to head back, so I propped up my gear (half-way up on a secondary base) and took the shot.

Someone/some people had spent a not inconsiderable amount of time erecting this baby out of the lava rocks littering the field. Seeing that this area has been roamed for 150+ years, who knows how long it's been there?

I agree with what Art said earlier (9:42 MDT).

> if there is no trail in a seldom used wilderness setting, the question is more iffy in my mind.
do you use cairns to keep people from getting off course, or do you not have cairns in order to preserve each persons wilderness exploration experience?

Like Luke said, there may be a good reason for it to be there I'm not aware of. I've rebuilt a few and added a few on what I considered a challenging portion of a route. I wouldn't tear one down in almost all cases.

How useful are they really in snow? Upon thinking about it, I'd assume they'd have to be pretty big so you could distinguish the snow-covered cairn from any other boulder.

FYI, let me quote Townsend directly so you have a bit more context:
"Useful though it is, I would not like to see waymarking increase. I'd rather find my own way through the wilderness, and I don't build cairns or cut blazes, let alone paint rocks. In fact, I often knock down cairns that have appeared where there were none before, knowing that if they are left, a trail will soon follow. Painting waymarks in hitherto unspoiled terrain is vandalism." (p. 402). He shares a story of large red paint spots defiling a path down a mountain in the Western Highlands of Scotland.

So it appears he only knocks them down if they are new. He must have a very good memory, and how does he know he didn't just miss it on the previous trip? Anyway, this is a good discussion, and something I hadn't previously considered until reading his book last night. I'm almost done with it.

I think cairns are a lot less obtrusive in a wilderness setting than the brightly colored ribbons sometimes used to mark a trail or even worse (imo), painted or carved tree blazes or medallions mounted on trees. I can't stand that stuff! At least the rocks were sitting around there to begin with and didn't require lugging paint or a bunch of little reflector signs and nails into the forest to mark a trail.

I will occasionally add one or two cairns on a poorly maintained trail section or near a brushy creek crossing. I really don't ever knock them down unless there are multiple ones side by side or I might sometimes improve one that looks to be unstable.

A lot of our trails are poorly maintained and pass through quick-growing and thick chapparal. Cairns help folks to stay on the (faint) routes. And like others have said, once you add snow and the tread is covered, the cairns can become even more helpful.

When traveling off trail, I do not build them ever. And if I find any near or leading to a particularly sensitive site, such as a Native American rock art site, I will typically remove them as these sights are to remain "hush hush" according to the Forest Service and are their locations are not to be advertised.

Remember that Chris was talking about Scotland. We only have a few official trails, and most folk hike 'off trail'. Cairns can cause a trail to form where there wasn't one before. Find your own route!

In my opinion the real point of cairns is to mark trails so lets discuss trails which aren't LNT either.

1. Trails are probably inevitable – Trails generally lead to popular spots like peaks or lakes. Whether they are official or not trails are going to happen. If we have trails we'll probably want something to mark them, whether thats cairns, signposts or blazes.

2. Trails concentrate use in certain areas – This means places like Bear Lakes in RMNP will be overrun with people. People whine about this but that misses the point. There are a certain number of people in this country who want to hike in wild areas. Do we want them spread evenly or concentrated in some areas and not others? For example all those people on the JMT make it crowded. But would we prefer that they all went cross country throught the Sierras? If that happened you'd never know where you'd find solittude or where you'd meet hordes of people.

In my opinion marked trails serve two purposes

1. They make wilderness travel a bit easier for those who don't want to do map&compass navigation all the time. Who are we to say they shouldn't be able to enjoy the wilderness that way? The parks and forest belong to day hikers touring the west in and RV just as much as they belond to thru-hikers.

2. Trails keep the non-solitude seeking hordes in relatively predicatable areas. This is helpful for managment. Its also good for those of use who prefer an more solitude. Go off trail somewhere and you probably wont' see anyone.

Edit – Question for Mike Reid – If most folks are off trail in Scotland do unofficial trails form? Over here in the US we have enough trees etc. that I think people would naturally funnel along certain routes and trails would form whether we wanted them or not. Maybe Scotland is different sinces it looks pretty open to me?