What glue for alcohol stoves? Or rivets?

[Ben F]

I'm looking at making the Zen basic sideburner stove ( http://zenstoves.net/BasicSideBurner.htm ), and I went to the hardware store tonight and was somewhat perplexed by the number of glues available, but I didn't see a single one rated for above 500 degrees. Which a stove probably gets above. So I was wondering, is there a reason I can't use rivets? They seem like they'd be more durable, and easier to work with. 1/8th inch rivets would probably work well. Or should I just use stuff like this? http://www.amazon.com/Pro-Seal-80726-Hi-Temp-Silicone/dp/B000FW7VNW

[Bob Gross]

Why not use the suggestion made at Zenstoves?

JB Weld

If you were trying to get some adhesive to withstand the hot temperatures above the flame, that would be one thing. However, you are trying to join two pieces of aluminum that are below the flame level, and the heat there is not that extreme.

–B.G.–

[Ben F]

Because I've read elsewhere JB Weld doesn't always work that well. It's also expensive.

[Bob Gross]

"Because I've read elsewhere JB Weld doesn't always work that well. It's also expensive."

Correct. JB Weld works poorly when it is misapplied. It costs $3-$6.

–B.G.–

[Ben F]

Oh snap. It was 17 dollars at the Ace down the street from my place.

[Ben F]

http://www.acehardware.com/product/index.jsp?productId=1424232

[Bob Gross]

The price is going to be high for a professional size.

Instead, I suggest that you go to your local auto parts store, and they will likely have smaller sizes. It's about $5 where I live. Of course, even the small size lasts for many projects.

There is also JB Kwik, which is a closely related product that bonds much faster, but it has less thermal tolerance.

–B.G.–

[John Donewar]

Ben,

Zenstoves also suggests …high temperature RTV silicone…

Permatex 81422 Sensor-Safe High-Temp RTV Silicone Gasket has a temperature rating of –75°F to +650°F intermittent.

Note the term intermittent. Is a ten minute burn time considered "intermittent"?

Rivets will probably work well enough.

This is a picture of the now discontinued original Thru Hiker Stove from End2End Trail Supply.

It was made with the now extinct Heineken 12 ounce keg cans which brought about its discontinuation. But as you can see from the picture it was made using rivets.

I believe this is roughly the same kind of stove that you are building.

Party On,

Newton

[Ben F]

John, that's pretty much the stove I'm building, thanks for the rivet ideas. I guess I don't have anything I'd really use a riveter on, so there's not much point in buying on, but it sure would be fun!

[Steven Hanlon]

Rivets? how much weight are they going to add? just get the small JB Weld or some RTV at Autozone – under $5.00 for the little tube. i printed out the templates for the exact stove from ZenStoves and plan on building one in the near future.

[Ben F]

Well, I haven't weight one, but here's a chart- http://www.r-rivet.com/040~Product_Info/#weights1
.87 pounds divided by 1000 is.. not a lot. .3oz or something for three rivets.

[Kevin Beeden]

In my experience, there's no need for glue of rivets when making a 'trangia-style', or 'pepsi-can' burner.

If you make the lower, outer can come up the full height of the burner (at least to the 'shoulder' of the upper, inner can), then it will act as a full-height fuel cup.

Also, when the shoulder of the inner can meets the rim of the outer can, it forms a pretty robust interference fit that is adequately gas tight, provided there are no dents in the shoulder.

Having a joint in the middle of the sidewall of the burner is the weakest place to put it; the flexible sidewalls bend easily at this point. Putting the joint at the shoulder of the inner can is the strongest place, since the shoulder is the strongest part of the can (take an empty can, and see how much force it takes to press the sidewalls in in the middle of the wall, then try the same at the shoulder…).

Here's my set of instructions for making a 'classic' burner using this sort of joint.

[Ben F]

Hey Kevin, thanks for that! The design is slightly different for yours (top burner as opposed to side burner) but same basic idea. Thanks for some good ideas on getting the top off.
The thing I'm having trouble with is getting the actual burner holes in without dimpling or bending the side of the can.

Edit-actually, can yours be used without a pot stand?

[Ultra Magnus]

2nd what Kevin Beeden had to say- the press fit between the two cans is more than adequate. JB weld can actually complicate the process and lead to lots of frustration. The only part I would jb weld would be the inner sleeve of an open jet stove. I want that joint to be nice and leak tight, but that's just me.

BM

[G Watson]

Thirded.
Though i do use a small amount of JB on Lynx burners as i have known them come apart after a burn.

[Ben F]

Huh, ok, thanks guys. I'll try to just press it later. My question is, to make the pressing process easier, is it ok to crimp the top can so it slides in easier, or will that not be enough of a seal?

[Bob Gross]

It is probably OK to crimp the top can. However, that will leave a tiny weak spot there. Most aluminum cans like this can be stretched slightly.

I've managed to make most of my burners fit together without crimping them, except for the one that I made out of a tealight candle cup. But I used JB Weld on it.

–B.G.–

[Ben F]

So I did what you guys suggested, and just pressed it in, and worked rather well, except that it seems to be burning out the sides rather than the holes. So I guess the seal isn't tight enough? It burned very quickly.

Edit-did a timed test, and it took a minute to prime, boiled two cups of water in 3.5 minutes, and burned for 5 minutes after priming, 6 minutes total. So pretty inefficient!

[Mole J]

Ben – if you look at Kevins instructions again, you will see that the lower/exterior can runs all the way to the top edge? This would take your 'edge' seal up to the top away from your burner jets.

Practice putting together cans a few times and you will manage a leak free seal. I found that need to be careful in the small amount of 'crimping' that may be neededto get a fit. Flaring the edges of the lower can slightly by pushing a similar unopened can in can help.

If only a small leak or 2, then a dab of JB Weld can salvage if you are not a perfectionist ;)

Having said all this, I always use a separate potstand (Cone is my preference). Standing a pan on a smaller stove (unless completly 'square') is always gonna be risky for a clumsy person like me.

For a simpler to makeand just as efficient (IME) stove, a Zen Stoves Chimney is a good start- can use with or without potstand in different modes.

But, although I like playing with homemade stoves I now use a Starlyte Stove for most of my trips!

[Daniel Cox]

I've had excellent results putting the 'inside' piece in the freezer, and the 'outside' piece in a pyrex cup of almost boiling water. wait 5 minutes, remove the pieces and quickly put them together. the contraction/expansion of aluminum is enough that they *almost* slide smoothly together. It usually buys me about 10 seconds to get them started, then they need to be pressed between my palm and the counter to finish placement.

[smith david]

Advantages –

Easy to construct.

Sturdier than stoves made from pop cans.

Wider base and more stable than stoves made from 12oz and 6oz cans.

Doesn't require a pot stand.

Works.

Able to use with 24oz Can-Pots (Heineken).

Easy to find parts.

[Kevin Beeden]

> So I did what you guys suggested, and just pressed it in,

Errmm… no you didn't…

I suggested that you make the outer can tall enough to reach the 'shoulder' of the inner can, and use the interference fit between the outer can and the shoulder as the joint.

Any design that uses a half-height can will be very weak, because the joint is in the middle of the can wall, where it is weakest; mechanically, it's completely the wrong place to put a joint of any kind. Hence my suggestion of playing with squeezing cans to find out where the weak part is (middle of side wall), and where the strongest parts are (at the shoulders at top & bottom of the can).

I'd suggest that you can simply pull the two halves of your stove apart with almost no effort. This does not make for a strong stove… With an interference fit between outer can in inner shoulder, you won't be able to get the halves apart without destroying the burner.

Have another look at my instructions on OutdoorsMagic (link in earlier post). It explains the rationale behind this interference fit joint.

[Bob Gross]

"With an interference fit between outer can in inner shoulder, you won't be able to get the halves apart without destroying the burner."

I made one different burner, a low-pressure side burner. The two parts went together so solidly that wild horses couldn't pull them apart.

–B.G.–

[Harald Hope]

http://www.jureystudio.com/pennystove/penny2.html

This article is on how to make the penny stove, and gives you a good idea on how to construct without epoxy.

It took me a few tries, and one thing I used to determine success or failure was if alcohol burned out the sides, if it did, the stove was a failure, and I made a new one.

there's some more extreme examples using a hydraulic press but it looked to me like it was just something that is cool, not actually particularly efficient.

I agree also that using the weld stuff is a bad idea, I would never want to depend on that. Is a shortcut, but it's just a shortcut required when the pressing together fails to produce a clean joint.

I agree on freezer and heating, though I found that just sticking the outer piece on the bottom of a pan with low heat was all that was needed, and the freezer piece. My feeling is that part of the reason it works best that way is that the condensation that forms makes just enough lube to let the two equal diameters slip together. I never got a penny stove to work without the freezer part.

And also as noted, the joint has to be the height of the wall, not half. Getting the crimps right is a bit of a black art, trial and error, get a six pack of whatever to start.

[Daniel Cox]

JB weld can work for small spots, but is not a particularly good choice (not that I've found an alternative) in large amounts for one particular reason- it's got a much higher specific heat than aluminum, that is, it 'absorbs' heat and changes temperature much slower than a thin-walled soda can. This makes priming a problem. My first alcohol stove had a crimp that allowed a rather sizable flame out the side, so I filled it with JB weld. Being the anal retentive guy I am, I disliked the grey 'splotch' on the side and smeared a thin layer of JB weld over the whole sidewall, all the way around to make it pretty.
Let me tell you, the stove is literally bomb-proof. I can actually stand on it. It also takes about 5 minutes to prime, and after the fuel is gone it's too hot to touch for another 2-3 minutes.

If one is extremely precise about the crimps, there should be no need for any type of sealant, remember the two halves are actually the same size. I've had the best results with 12-16 radial crimps that are about 1/4 of the sidewall height for that piece. They only exist to create an artificial taper to ease in the mating of top and bottom (or inner and outer, whatever). I have a v-8 can side burner that has a clearly identifiable 'shoulder' where the outer is stretched over the inner. That's a tight fit.

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