Mar 6, 2012 at 2:44 pm #1286722
Companion forum thread to:Mar 6, 2012 at 4:50 pm #1849775
@davecLocale: Crown of the Continent
Will and I disagree about Montane sizing. I do not find their stuff undersized, merely fitted (or athletic, if you will). I appreciate being able to have a wind layer which doesn't flap like mad in the wind.
Montane just released a hooded anorak made of the same fabric, which many will find interesting.Mar 6, 2012 at 5:03 pm #1849780
Fitted like it was made for biking is what I thought of that jacket.Mar 7, 2012 at 3:43 am #1849922
I think manufacturers should provide more information about the fit of garments. As David says, it could be fitting Will exactly the way it was designed, but Will might not like as slim of a fit as it's intended size is designed for. Patagonia is really good about this, they have a sizing system that states how close to the body you can expect a piece to fit. I think it would be great to see other manufacturers do something similar.Mar 7, 2012 at 4:28 am #1849928
I've said this before I think, but the problem isn't that European garments are undersized. On the contrary, US garments are over-sized to make people think that they aren't as overweight as they really are. It's kind of sad and just serves to further promote our obesity epidemic.
If you want to test it yourself, take your favorite pair of pants and measure around the waist. Take that and compare it to the specified size. Generally, the actual dimension will be 1-2 (or more) inches larger than the size would otherwise indicate.Mar 7, 2012 at 5:41 am #1849944
Martin RJ CarpenterMember
They've always seemed very normal/mainstream to me over here in the UK. Certainly nothing like as far into tall/thin cuts as some of the Scandinavian companies. Not that any company is internally consistent about this! As well as how close the cuts are, the arm lengths can also vary hugely.
I guess that the other thing to remember is that from a UK perspective the major market for this is probably going to be scarily fit people like fell runners, so you'd logically expect an aggressive cut. I'd imagine that their microlight windshirts are rather more generous.Mar 7, 2012 at 6:26 am #1849958
@davecLocale: Crown of the Continent
I should be more specific: I've got a Rab Cirrus, Montane Litespeed, Patagonia Houdini, and Montbell UL wind parka kicking around here at the moment. All mediums. The former two are fitted, the later two more relaxed. All have pretty similar back and sleeve lengths (oddly, the Litespeed has one of the longer torsos, but the shortest arms). I'd say the Litespeed has the best fit overall, they cut their arms and shoulders in a 3D way which makes for a truly remarkable athletic yet roomy fit.
On the other hand, if you want to wear your windshirt over more something like a midweight down jacket, you'll likely be happier with one of the roomier cuts. There are so many truly great windshirts available that selection can come down to preference in fit and features (or the lack of them).Mar 7, 2012 at 7:35 am #1849987
@holdfastLocale: Bergen, Norway
"There are so many truly great windshirts available that selection can come down to preference in fit and features" – and colour! ;)
Another thing I have discovered is that one company's definition of size can change from year to year. My Montane Litespeed is a Medium and is 3 years old (this thing just can't be killed off by conventional means). My Montane Krypton softshell from last winter was originally purchased in a Large (to act as the outer shell in a two soft-shell system) but I found it too small and ended up with an XL. A discussion with the company revealed that the current designer had shifted the sizing parameters slightly.
I'll echo the sentiments here that the 'Euro' brands appear to have a different cut on the whole. Rab, Montane, Haglofs, Norrøna and others all combine good fabrics with great tailoring. Long arms, long torsos and no excess flappage FTW.
Paramo on the other hand. Wonderful fabric, shocking cut…Mar 7, 2012 at 8:20 am #1850010
Maybe the new Litespeed is fitted but neither of the two that I own seem to be. I did size up to a large, but it fits well over insulation. Try that with a slipstream and it won't work. The slipstream to me is a biking jacket and those are all fitted.Mar 7, 2012 at 8:36 am #1850020
I'm pretty perplexed about the overall rating statement: "Montane’s small sizing is an inconvenience; the jacket runs small, and many buyers will need to size up. Why not use standard US sizing to avoid that problem?
Why should a non-US company have to use "standard" US sizing. Why then does the US not use the "correct" British measurement of a pint for example?
I agree with Chris that its the US sizes that are large, rather than British or European sizes being small.Mar 7, 2012 at 8:40 am #1850023
"Why should a non-US company have to use "standard" US sizing. Why then does the US not use the "correct" British measurement of a pint for example?"
Because if you want to sell in the largest market in the world, you would probably want to provide sizes that adhere to most of the population.
Montane does run small. I am 6'1" and 210 lbs. An XL is fine for me except around the chest / back. Compared to say, Marmot, of which I don't have the same issue. Last time I checked Marmot sells Globally.Mar 7, 2012 at 9:04 am #1850038
–Mar 7, 2012 at 9:05 am #1850039
@tjaardLocale: Minnesota, USA
"The first thing you should know about the Slipstream is that it runs small. My sample is a size Large and it fits like a Medium, which I found to be okay for a windshirt since I frequently wore it over just a baselayer. I have fairly long arms and torso and found the sleeves and body to be long enough. The resulting fit is trim."
That sounds like it is not small, if it is long enough for a long armed person in the sleeves it is TRIM, not SMALL. Small means ALL dimensions are reduced!
So for Will and other reviewers:
When discussing fit, please don't use blanket statements like: "small".
Please explain whether sleeve length, body length, chest girth and sleeve girth are shorter or longer than usual for that size, and what you are comparing it too. Also a description of your body and fit preferences is nice.
For example if small means short in sleeve or body, I can't wear it (6'5"). But if it means tight in waist or chest, I'd probably love it! (32": waist and skinny arms)
It is great to note the style of fit: ie trim, mid-cut or roomy as many manufacturers do.
Thanks!Mar 7, 2012 at 9:20 am #1850046
@tjaardLocale: Minnesota, USA
If you find you don't like Paramo fit,try Cioch Direct, they use Paramo fabric to make their garments, and do custom sizing too.
You could also try Furtech, which works similar(haven't tried it).Mar 7, 2012 at 9:23 am #1850048
@holdfastLocale: Bergen, Norway
Yup, Cioch will be my next call when replacing the Vista.Mar 7, 2012 at 10:58 am #1850094
@nigelhealyLocale: San Francisco bay area
I own plenty of Montane. Litespeed, Slipstream Gilet, Velo, Prism, Krypton. My Montane kit gets used more than others as often a windshirt is all I need over a base, or to add a bit more to an insulation layer. I owned 2 Litespeeds bought 3 years apart, the Litespeed's sizing has not changed but the fabric has changed, more shiny, less matt.
These garments are all designed for different purposes. The Litespeed is an overlayer to fit over a fleece to turn a fleece into a coat. The Slipstream gilet is to fit over a tight baselayer for joggers.
The Prism is an over-layer, baggier than the Krypton which a next-to-skin type.
The Velo is for cyclists who hate flap, its tight across the upper-chest.
I don't think Montane are not assuming different body shapes, but assuming different levels of garments under.
In order of tightest first
Now the Litespeed's bagginess has its uses, I can for example put a Patagonia Down Sweater under the Litespeed and gain net insulation, as well as add a degree of water resistance. The Slipstream if I don't mind it riding up as my wider chest pulls the bagginess up from the belly, can fit over the Prism. I wore that yesterday on a bike's ride descent, the Slipstream cinching down all the flap from the Prism on the torso, making it warmer.
What makes the Slipstream differently useful, its a small packed size which makes it more useful as an emergency little-used windproof, but it can't so easily fit over thicker layers. The GL… I never understood who'd buy it, more fragile and a fraction lighter and a lot more expensive. I'd buy it for a little $ more. If you're going to layer over mid-layers go up a size but really its more for layering over a baselayer for high-activity uses.
I fully agree that US sizing differences is about politely avoiding the issue the average USA person is larger. It would be more healthy reminders if they kept sizes smaller.Mar 7, 2012 at 11:18 am #1850104
@williwabbitLocale: Southwest Colorado
Your point is well taken and I stand corrected. The Montane Slipstream jacket has a trim fit and does not "run small" as stated. The sleeve and body lengths are as expected for a size Large, but the body girth is trim. A trim fit is good if you don't want the jacket to flap in the wind, but it limits layering to a thin insulation layer.
I said the same for the Montane Spektr Smock a while back. It also has a trim fit. I sized up to an XL in that jacket because I wanted enough girth to wear it over an UL down jacket in camp.Mar 7, 2012 at 12:29 pm #1850149
Thanks for clarifying the trim fit Will.
I think it is time to update your opening statement on the review for those who do not read the thread.Mar 7, 2012 at 12:44 pm #1850154
Is it just me, or does anyone else think this jacket is hideous?Mar 7, 2012 at 1:38 pm #1850187
I have two variations of the Houdini, from 2010 & 2011. They both work well ih Hawaii weather, where it can be cool with sporadic showers. However, I would not wear them as rain gear in sustained downpours or prolonged temperature drops.
As stated elsewhere in this thread, Patagonia does a god job of stating the type of fit, ie slim, fitted or roomy for their clothing. That said, I still range between XS to M for their gear. Also, the Houdini, and most other manufacters' gear I've tried or studied will be sized to accommodate garments underneath or not and the sizing will depend upon this design element. So it's important to note this when shopping, especially online.
As far as standard sizing, most products sold internationally will state the size under each system. Usually, manufacturers who sell in multiple markets will size and advertise accordingly, even though sometimes sizing can still be a bit "off" if it is not what one is used to, so it's not a matter of right or wrong, much less demanding one worldwide standard.
As far as being annoying to order something and have to return it because the fit per size is not what we're used to, yes, it is! Unfortunately, this is just a necessary evil of not being able try things on in advance. How many of us bypass our local gear store to shop online, causing the local store to close? Not to mention what women routinely encounter when garments and gear are sold as the ubiquitous unisex! where the garment dimensions really don't fit anyone very well, or it's really just a man's fitted garment that is re-labelled to lure women into buying it. Sometimes I think the shipping charges make up the online savings as compared to shopping local.
Alas, the global marketplace! However, on balance, things usually work out, after all, we all get to come here and talk story.Mar 7, 2012 at 3:45 pm #1850264
Great review of the jacket. Re sizing, I noticed the following comment at the bottom of the Description page for each jacket:
Please Note: We recommend that you order a size up from normal with Montane as the brand’s sizing is slighter slimmer fit.
PaulMar 8, 2012 at 7:25 am #1850503
We should all agree on the fact that measuring stuff in kings limbs, oxes working pace and beer cans (ok) and so on, isn't getting us anywhere. Hence, the SI-system. Better write that one down.
On the fit, I echo the previous posts. What should the athletic people wear if medium is obese and the slim cut must be able to accommodate a fleece. I like Haglöfs cut, yes I'm also a Scandinavian. Really like Patagonia as a company, but even their "fit" isn't as fit as the Haglöfs I'm used to. They should all post their measurements so we can compare.Mar 8, 2012 at 7:45 am #1850504
Martin RJ CarpenterMember
Indeed it rather baffles me why they don't at least out real measurements on the websites somewhere. Arm length, back length, chest, waist say?
Maybe its too much work with the massive diversity of new styles they all keep producing. Or maybe people don't mind cf stuff not fitting quite right. Dunno.Mar 10, 2012 at 3:43 pm #1851734
"I've said this before I think, but the problem isn't that European garments are undersized. On the contrary, US garments are over-sized to make people think that they aren't as overweight as they really are. It's kind of sad and just serves to further promote our obesity epidemic."
Id agree. I spent some time overseas in France. I immediately noticed that all the women there look like models, esp. teenage girls , they look like girls used to look here 50 yrs ago before McDonalds. They simply dont have access to the convenience store crap and fast food we do.
When I came home I was shocked to see how disgusting and fat americans were. The condition of the average teenage girl brings tears to me. Our society is destroying our kids, not to mention adults.
You really have to go elsewhere and come back to realize how bad it is.Mar 11, 2012 at 10:50 am #1851965
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