the new $1600 benchmark?!

Though Nunatak makes very fine products,they do tend to be a bit expensive. But, this is taking things a bit to the extreme. I do not think that they will have many takers at a price of an additional surcharge of an additional $125/oz of 950+ down.

At this rate, Gucci should be releasing their new line of backpacking equipment any day now. Sounds like Backpacker magazine’s dream come true. Think of the advertisments. What’s next?

I hate to mention it, but all this great 750-900 goose down that we’ve had come easily available in the last 10 years or so is harvested from live geese. Cruelty to animals most definitely. Mature birds (the older the better) have their down yanked out periodically. This is very painful for the birds and then they are left to shiver since they have lost their insulation. Good old 600-650 is taken from young birds which are killed first, plucked, then sold for food.

For the person who really wants down, remember that high loft downs are much more intolerant of moisture and experience greater loss of loft in damp conditions than 600-650.

Richard,

Would you post some references on this type of goose down harvesting. Thanks.

I can’t do this today, but I’d be happy for someone else to assist in proving or disproving my statements. Not saying I’m correct, just what I’ve heard.

The only viable insulation alternative to down currently available for outdoor pursuits are of course,synthetics such as primaloft,polarguard,etc.

Synthetics are derived from petro chemicals which
require resource extraction from sometimes very sensitive environments and contributes to CO2 in the atmosphere with long term consequences –yet
can you imagine wilderness travel w/o them.

compare and contrast with farming/harvesting geese.

Though they do not seem to reference it any more on their web site, I thought that Feathered Friends (FF)indicated that the high loft down that they were using (others as well?) were harvested from mature birds that had lost their down through molt or shed. As I recall they indicated, that the birds were well cared for and that it would be imprudent for people that relied on the down for income to injure their birds. Also, as I recall FF further indicated that only mature healthy birds could produce the sought after high loft down clusters.

No doubt that some high loft down is harvested ethically. The problem is that Eastern Europe (and now also Russia/China?) is the major source for down and this is where the culprits are. Kind of like organic food, there is no easy way of proving that your down is ethical unless you buy it directly from the farmer. Does FF do this? If they buy through a distribution chain then the probablity is low. It would be interesting to get statements from the various manufacturers as to the quality of their down sources. It would mean more to me if that lab in Utah could confirm that the down was ethically harvested than whether it was truly 900 fill power!

It’s true that the alternatives to down are petrochemical products. But let’s face it, the plastics are manufactured from oil which is extracted for fuel i.e. plastics are a by-product

let’s face it–life preys on life
or as they say–“that’s life”

From the FF website:

“Origin

You can tell very little about the down is a sleeping bag from outside the shell, other than the relative fill power that is evident in the loft. FTC regulations even allow a percentage of duck down in down labeled goose, and although goose down is potentially better than duck, the best duck down is better than mediocre goose down. Down processors buy down from all over the world, basing the purchase decision of quality, price, and maintaining a long term relationship. The down may then be mixed to meet standards required by a manufacturer.
How is it obtained?

Down is commonly described as coming from mature, cold climate geese. In truth the climate the goose is raised in has very little to do with the quality of the down, and very little down comes from geese that you or I would call mature. Almost all down commercially available is a secondary product of geese raised for consumption. It would be prohibitively expensive to raise geese for down alone. Geese generally are hatched in the spring and slaughtered for poultry in the fall. A small number of breeder birds are kept through the year. These geese molt naturally in the spring. While their down is loose it is collected by hand. This is the down used in Feathered Friends sleeping bags and jackets. It is very rare and , of course, expensive.
What is the difference in quality?

There are other important measurements of down quality. In other parts of the world the percentage of whole down pieces verses feather and fiber has traditionally been the measure of down quality. Down with 95% cluster is about as good as you can get, and even down with 80% cluster would pass as “all down”. Cleanliness is important also, contaminants cause odors, shorten the life of the down, and can cause allergies.

Recovery from compression used to be regarded as an important property to measure. With high fill power down, you can be pretty much rest assured that care has been taken in cleaning and separating the down, otherwise you simply would not get the high fill power figures. The premium 700+ to 800+ fill are both quite different from 550+ to 650+ fills. Down is commonly described as coming from mature, cold climate geese. In truth, the climate the geese are raised in has very little to do with the quality of the down, and very little down comes from geese that you or I would call mature.

Almost all down commercially available is a secondary product of geese raised for consumption. It would be prohibitively expensive to raise geese for down alone. The “mature” geese that are the source for lower fill down are about four months old when they are “harvested” for food. Down from these geese can be carefully sorted, washed, and blended, but it will never loft like really mature down. In addition, there are differences in the breed of geese. 800+ fill is a more mature, more carefully selected type of down that makes up the 700+ fill. The larger individual plumes are what gives you the greater loft. The only way to get down of this quality is by careful hand selection. This is the major factor in its scarcity, not the lack of mature geese. Farms that want to produce the highest quality down must raise the right geese, feed them properly, let them become mature, and then carefully gather the down. Very few poultry farmers want to go through this trouble.

Some of the 700+ down fill we use comes from a small number of birds kept for breeding purposes throughout the year. These geese molt naturally in the spring. While their down is loose it is collected by hand. It is very rare and, of course, expensive. Down processors are very secretive about their sources. We will probably never be able to determine how much of our down is “live plucked” and how much is collected from the geese that are eaten.”

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Here’s how to find it for yourself. I used the Merlin bag to locate it, but you can prob. find it from most/all of the bag’s web pages. Click the “800 Fill Upgrade” & then click the “Orgin” (sic) tab. The above quoted paragraphs are copied and pasted directly from there.

Here’s a link to start y’all off ==> Origin of FF down

Here’s something:

http://www.upc-online.org/livepluc.html

Since PETA has entered the fray,here’s something else:
http://www.greatestjournal.com/users/erasorhed/2004/08/24/

and then this whole topic can be removed to Chaf
instead of g spot

Er, sorry, had I thought that the discussion would go this way, I would have posted in Chaff. I’m glad it has, tho, since I’ve wondered about the ethics and sustainability of down for awhile. Guess I just assumed it was not a pretty picture, and since little of my gear is down, just decided to live in ignorance. It seems the FF link argues that little else is possible, though personally I’m not sure that’s good enough. Anyway great info everyone.