Cottage Stagnation and a Thorough Response

"5 pound baseweight is fantastic, but if I'm 20 pounds overweight, that's what matters, not what's on my back."

Maybe I'm taking you too literally, but I think base weight and body weight are two separate issues and they both matter….along with weight of consumables.

No, I don't think baseweight and body weight are different at all. What matters is the total mass you're propelling through space.
If you're 150 pounds with a 50 pound pack on you're moving 200 pounds. If you're 180 pounds and got a 20 pound pack on, it's still 200 pounds. The difference of course is that the 180 pound person is moving proportionally less of their bodyweight, so they might be better able to deal with it, but 200 pounds total is still 200 pounds.

Edit: I'm not a physics person, so I'd love to be schooled as to why this is wrong.

Carry five extra pounds on your back and your feet and shoulders will likely feel it. Carry five extra pounds of body weight and your feet might feel it but likely they are very used to carrying the weight.

And for the record I would rather have extra weight on my back than my tummy. I can always chose to leave it at home.

I'm not a physics person either and I can't really speak to that. I'm just saying why not try to minimize both pack weight and body weight rather than use one as a reason not to worry about the other?

An extreme example:

A year ago I went elk hunting with a Native friend, his brother and nephew. Friend and I are decently active, 180-ish when we should be 160 pounds. Brother and nephew were BIG – 300 and 350 pounds but active (plasterers). I got a 90-pound front quarter up out of the canyon and came back a lot faster than they expected. So I did it again. But those 140-pound back quarters? I couldn't do. Just could not. But those big guys? – they each grabbed one and had no problem, I took an 80-pound pack of small cuts and my clever friend carried out just the 20-pound antlers. We still give him crap about that!

My point (and I've heard this from PTs and MDs) is that inside of a big ACTIVE person, is a strong person. I didn't say healthy, neccesarily, but strong. If I went shopping, doing laundry, mowing the lawn, etc, all with AN EXTRA PERSON on my back, I'd be buff. Alas, if it is fat, you don't get to lay that weight down for your trip.

So I'll grant the "pounds are pounds" crowd that if you lost 10 pounds pack weight that would be very similar to having lost 10 pounds of belly last year.

But if the 10 pounds were liposuctioned off at the trailhead? Then it would be like you'd been in training with an extra 10 pounds on at ALL times – around town, in the house, etc.

So a hem and haw estimate – 10 pounds off your belly is like 5-6 pounds off your back. They both help, but you automatically condition somewhat for the belly weight.

But I find it helpful to think of dropping belly weight like buying SUL gear or a super-light bike. Skip the nightly beer and have one bite less of pasta at dinner for 3 months and 90×200/4,000 = 4.5 pounds lost. That's like 3 pounds off my back which would be very spendy AND I'm healthier AND I look better.

Sounds like the moral of the story is we should all be going about our daily lives with 20 pound lead weights in our pockets! Then when we hit the trail, we're good to go.

"but I've sort of accepted my gear is good enough for what I do (probably better than what I need, truthfully) and that's that."

I think this is a really good point that often gets overlooked. What is an acceptable weight to carry on your back? Well, it depends on lots of things:

1. What kind of physical shape are you in? Someone who is 65 and overweight or suffers from a certain medical condition might be able to get out and do trips with a 10 lb pack weight that they couldn't do if their pack weighed 30 or 40 lbs.

2. What kind of trips are you taking? If i'm only hiking in for an overnighter or going with my girlfriend, I sometimes splurge and bring a heavier (and bigger) tent, fresh food, good microbrews, cards, etc. If I'm thru hiking and have a goal, all that stuff falls by the wayside and I focus on the lightest options available so I can maintain a fast rate of travel. Comfort vs efficiency is the name of the game sometimes.

I go lighter because I like to take longer trips, test myself by distance and speed, and enjoy not having a bunch of crap taking up space in my gear closet. But the fact is, UL backpacking sometimes breeds consumerism because it is so specialized.

All I'm saying is everyone's situation is different, and I'm assuming (and hoping) that most people select gear with these factors in mind.

I think the cottage industry will survive if you didn't buy that new cuben fiber tarp to save 4 ounces. Just sayin'.

I just hope the UL cottage guys can keep going. Even though I don't need a cuben fiber tent, when I go to get a new tent someday, I hope there are cuben fiber tents or at least UL tents of some sort, and that I'm not forced to buy heavy overkill stuff (or make my own gear) just because they couldn't keep afloat.

There definitely is a tension between economic success and innovative UL gear, that is certain.

Fantastic article. Interesting perspective and insight.

I think I'll steal the term "Black Arts" and use it as my explanation the next time I get the "What you got in there?" series of questions.

> No, I don't think baseweight and body weight are different at all. What matters is the total mass you're propelling through space.

Big no. Weight on your pack affects very differently than weight on your body does. The pack moves your center of gravity up and backwards and concentrates load in certain spots while your body weight is more evenly distributed. Comparing both is quite an apples to oranges thing.

id rather be at a healthy weight and carry a heavier pack … than be at an unhealthy weight and carry a lighter pack

but then that requires that i do more than look at UL gear lists all day ;)

"id rather be at a healthy weight and carry a heavier pack … than be at an unhealthy weight and carry a lighter pack"

But what about those of us who are already in good shape and want to carry a lighter pack? It doesn't have to be one or the other really.

Then again, being in shape means I don't mind hauling in a 6 pack of Odell IPA and some delicious food. ;)

theres nothing wrong with carrying a lighter pack should one desire … but at a certain point it becomes seriously diminishing returns

what i have noticed, especially in climbing, is that unless you are sponsored, those who go out the most worry the least about new shiny gear … not to say you shouldnt get something that is reasonably light or replace stuff that wears out …

but they spend their money on gas to the hills and other travel expenses

i think too many people spend too much time worrying about what specific gear they will buy … the simple fact is that most of the gear from a multitude of manufacturers work more or less the same, and you can find it reasonably light from many places …

i honestly dont understand why people need all this fancy shiny gear to do what some grandma did half a century ago with with " Keds sneakers and carrying an army blanket, a raincoat, and a plastic shower curtain which she carried in a homemade bag slung over one shoulder"

not to say the right gear wont make a difference in the right circumstances, but its rarely a specific brand or model of it … just like a good climber should be able to climb on any decent cam/rope/nuts/biner, not just a specific brand …

one is much better off on spending the time and money on the skills and fitness needed for the great outdoors, those will provide you with a much greater safety margin than just marginally better or lighter gear … rather than sitting at ones desk fantasizing about a few grams here and there while eating cheezy poofs ;)

I agree with you. My load is a hell of a lot lighter when I'm backpacking versus when I'm climbing, and I pack appropriately. I also haven't jumped on the cuben bandwagon because I can't justify the cost for a few ounces.

It all goes back to what I said earlier – blanket statements about diminishing returns don't apply to everyone's situations. Are you thru hiking or going for a weekend trip? Are your joints in good shape or are you falling apart physically? Are you going camping or climbing?

UL backpacking breeds specialization – that is why this site exists, really. A place to talk about what is needed for specific trips in specific places for specific people.

You bring up the grandma example, but honestly, that is a non-starter. We don't have to do that nowadays. Gear can be bought that is fairly cheap, durable, easy to use, and brings a high level of comfort. Just because someone hiked the AT in Keds doesn't mean I have to or that it is the best way to do things. And I don't have to break the bank to do it. The idea of having good UL gear that works vs always coveting the newest and shiniest things is a totally different conversation.

And speaking of climbing gear, how much have you spent on THAT stuff over the years? ;)

the simple point is that while im sure there are many people here that are in great physical shape and practice the skills and "black arts" … while at the same time optimizing their gear …

im just as "sure" that there are many people here that spend more time looking at a spreadsheet and ordering the latest shiny gear that often ends up as closet queens rather than going out and just "doing it" …

and some may not be happy with the sound logic that skills and fitness is more important than any gear … no gear in the world will make up for a lack of either …

time to eat some cheezy poofs !!!

@ Eric -The point is that you are becoming a real bore. You have your point, but you just keep saying the same thing again and again on multiple threads. We all get it now – please stop.

I know people will respond that we are all free to say whatever we want, but if we were out in the real world I could make an excuse and go and talk to someone else, but on here I just can't get away. I often value your other contributions and insights and I know this will probably just encourage you, but I had to get it off my chest.

Edited to remove copyrighted cartoon in world of Sopa.

its a free country … just flag my post to the mods if you dont like it …

and i say the above very politely …

That's pretty much the response I expected. Do we have an ignore member/forum bore function on here?

> Edited to remove copyrighted cartoon in world of Sopa.
You did not need to. Fair use is fair use.
Stuff SOPA anyhow.

Cheers

@ Roger. Thanks. I personally don't give a stuff about SOPA, but didn't want to cause any problems for BPL, but looks like it would have been fine.