Hoops vs Stays….what’s the difference in performance?

I am sure we have experts here who can answer more completely that I… but my answer is "it depends". I have use frameless packs, and packs that had 1 or 2 stays, a hoop, a frame sheet, or frame sheet + stays. I haven't see one type be consistently superior to another (other than the lack of anything normally being worse–though exceptions even then). The backpack is a complete system. It's not just if there are stays or hoops, but how those structural element is integrated into the rest of the pack. In particular what the interface is between the stay/hoop, the pack, the shoulder straps, the load lifters (if the pack has them) and the waist strap.

–Mark

Mark, that's a good point on how the pack works as a complete system. I haven't given that aspect as much thought as necessary in the past.

So in your experience, one must consider the whole pack, rather than what is simply listed as the "suspension system."

I have shoved a parang right up next to my thermarest z-lite and even that helped to make the pack more rigid and put more weight on my hips. Made things more comfortable when pushing over 20 lbs.
If you are carrying anything stiff and long, try putting it in between your pad and the rest of your gear. It helps quite a bit.
A stay system doesn't have to be rocket science.

You want a stay to do two things (other than integrate it into the design). You want to bend it to form to your back, and you want it to be strong enough not to compress under a load. I suspect that rods are harder to keep in place without the hoop. Flat stays have some structure to them, in the sense they are wider. McHale uses 7075-T6 stays, and you have to work at it to bend it, but they don't collapse under load.

Hoops are found around a crinoline.
Stays are found in a corset.

Cheers

The hoop works GREAT under 25 – 30 lbs in my experience. Over that load and I prefer stays. What I like about hoops is that they flex to the movement of your back and provide not only vertical stiffness but also lateral movement with lighter weights.

Hoop systems can be much lighter and are plenty support for lower weight loads.. A light CF rod + Delrin top connector can be as low as 1 oz. The back padding can be 3 oz.

Stay systems usually weigh more but are usually beefier for higher weights. A lighter dual AL stay is around 4-6 oz + however much more padding, maybe 10 oz + total.

Of course, there is crossover of comfort perception and wide variations between the weights and performance between the two. Some hoop systems are over built and do not flex much and weigh as much or even more than the light stay systems. Conversely, some light stay systems flex too much ( stays bend too easy) and are not padded sufficiently.

For me, around under 30 – 35 lbs or less a light hoop system is fine and over 40 I would look at a beefier stay system with a very padded full hipbelt and For Sure! well designed load lifter straps atteached to the top of the stays above the shoulders to move more weight to the hips.

Packs are lke shoes, each fit different people different…

Ron, does this mean you'll be putting hoops and/or stays in your packs? : ]

Ron put it well, in fact, what he says about the weights carried vs hoops or stays is precisely how Lowe Alpine makes their packs, their new ultralights (probably considered 'light' here, correctly), like the Zepton, are good to 30 or 35, and use an incredibly stiff hoop, steel of some sort, while their more standard larger packs, heavier, used 2 solid stays, which did a great job holding much larger weights. Lowe's been at it a while, and I am happy to see reputable cottage guy like Ron come to the same conclusions, which isn't really surprising given that a pack has only so many ways of dealing with weight.

Great responses everyone! I appreciate the solid replies. Truth be told, I didn't know stays were better with the larger loads which means I'll be looking at packs differently now.

Roger, in your *personal* experience, are corsets more comfortable and supportive than crinolines? Which does more for my figure?

Hi Travis

For your figure? … … … or for mine?
:-)

Cheers

Well, we all get a good idea of your figure with your avatar picture! :)

My figure, however, might be in need of a corset soon. Not enough walking this winter. (It also doesn't help that I have a penchant for microbrews and craft beer…but I'll be dammed if I give up those!)

i just use a piece of wood … it works for 40+ lbs … and weights 4-5 oz

no joke =P

So you just stick a thin wooden frame sheet in your frameless pack? The problem I came across with frameless packs (i've only tried one, so take that FWIW) is that even with a rigid frame sheet, they really did nothing to put the load on my hips.

For one trip, I used some green bamboo wands to form a hoop frame (the kind you can buy at the garden supply stock to stake up plants). It worked great.

Where internal frames shine is the ability to bend the frames to the contour of your body, keeping the pack as close to your center of gravity.