UL Bear Protection

I haven't read the whole thread but last year Josh Spice wrote a summary of the available statistics on firearms and bear spray as bear protection

http://www.joshspice.com/2011/10/bear-spray-or-firearms-you-decide.html

The lesson I drew from that article is unless you are John Wayne (or other gun toting hero of your choice… ) stick with bear spray…

…

I'm amazed at how someone afraid of guns invades a discussion on guns & bears – I always see this more in backpacking forums than anywhere else.

Regarding the .357mag snubby – if it makes you sleep easier at night and you are willing to pack it – great! It will work well on the human waste that crops up now and then and it is better than your bare hands and bad breath against a bear. I know that folks are enamored with 180gr WFN hardcast bullets because they penetrate very well, but I'm thinking at 158gr JSP is probably good enough and much more affordable to practice with.

A black bear isn't hard to kill. Most that are causing trouble weigh about 200lbs or less. But you aren't likely to win in a hand to hand combat test with one (although a guy did kill one with a chunk of firewood a year ago).

What needs to be understood is that black bears are responsible for the majority of predatory attacks – where they either want you or your kids. Grizzlies account for most of the defensive attacks. Good back country practice can protect you from the defensive attacks. But you need some sort of weapon to deal with predatory attacks.

Bear spray works. It is cheap. It is lightweight. It also gives you a non-lethal way to deal with someones dog (my baby wouldn't bite anyone!). I'm not anti-firearm in the least, but they are expensive and heavy.

I happened to run acroos some tests of .357 to see which rounds would be most suitable for a bear encounter. If I recall the best penatration was with JSP 180 grains rounds from Core Bond. A close second was the 180 grain Buffalo Bore rounds. I actually fired the heavy duty Core Bond load in a snub nosed ultralight .357 years ago. It wasn't something you'd want to do all day but it was manageable.

Again if I was facing a grizzly I'd much rather have bear spray or a bigger gun. However since some people are going to be packin heat one way or the other I thought I through that out there. Remember a LOT of handgun ammo is designed for police/civilian self defense and would be little better than a .22 on a bear.

This whole thread makes me think we are much stupider than wild animals, and certanly the most arrogant of all the animals.

There is a book by Daniel Quinn called Ishmael that claims that humans feel as though we own the world, and that this belief is what makes us okay with destroying natural things to make our lifestyle more "livable" even though we are killing the very things that allow us to thrive. I won't tell you what he blames for us thinking the world belongs to us as that will cause another 30 page discussion over nothing but anyone can certainly go buy the book.

Think of it like this: Imagine that you have gone to a city you are unfamiliar with and have found yourself broken down in the worst of neighborhoods. Do you reach for a gun to "protect" yourself from the chance that the natives will attack you or do you show them respect and know you are a visitor in their domain and will be out of their hair as quickly as possible? If you chose reach for a gun, you would most likely be dead in a few minutes. They would take this as you being disrespectful, stupid by showing your hand, and take advantage of the fact you are alone and scared. As long as you show them respect and that you understand you are not in control of their domain (and that they are) you will be left alone or even accepted in most cases. Even if you are robbed, you walk away with your life intact.

Why is going to a national park any different? Why do we feel the need to set up a tent and protect our ground from the native bears? If you are dumb enough to leave food out where they can smell it and take advantage of it, then at least have the courtesy to walk away and let them do what they do. Yes, you may have to buy more food. That is the price you pay for being in their domain and not protecting what you have better… but by walking away, you still have your life. Will a bear come kill you why you sleep? We all know that you have a better chance of being struck by lightning twice before this will happen.

I can arm myself to the T for every situation, or I can think smart. I choose smart. All of us animals, regardless of species, take advantage of weakness for personal gain. This is true in humans as much (if not more) than wild animals… just look at business practices and why certain companies thrive better than others. That is all bears are doing when they walk into your camp site – bettering their chances of survival by getting an easy meal. We are in their home, why not respect that and let them be the king in their domain, just like we would in an unfamiliar neighborhood.

"but danggit sometimes guns are just cool…."

Just remember to save the last round for yourself. ;=)

"Light. Cheap. Make bang, bear go bub-bye."

+1 I can verify that method from personal experience. It has its problems, though.
They are strictly forbidden in national parks and are generally illegal everywhere. There is also the risk of starting a forest fire in arid western areas. But they work. Very well. At least with black bears.

Edited to reflect correct post reference.

Devon, you should show the natives respect and pack heat in case they decide to kill you anyways.
You can choose both, despite so many people suggesting that you can't.
The safest and most independent person is someone who avoids a fight and even runs from one but is prepared to kill if necessary.

Tom, Firearms are not strictly forbidden in National Parks. The law now defers to state law. In general, anything legal or illegal to carry around town is the same in a National Park. In California you need a concealed carry permit to carry a firearm in a National Park. In a state where you can open carry a firearm (which is A LOT of states), you can open carry a firearm in a National Park in that state.

National Forests and BLM land generally allow firearm carry despite what the state law is in public places. I say generally because it's possible to get into issues when carrying long guns out of hunting season or without a hunting license.

"Tom, Firearms are not strictly forbidden in National Parks."

Justin – I screwed up my copy/paste. I was referring to firecrackers. Sorry for the technical goof.

Oh, I didn't know what you were referring to. My bad!

"Devon, you should show the natives respect and pack heat in case they decide to kill you anyways."

I completely disagree in that instance and for the bear scenario.
Let me first say I am not anti-gun. I have taken certified gun safety courses and am planning on attaining my concealed permit (pretty easy to do in Texas).

That bing said, if I am in south Dallas broken down, the very worst thing I could do is let them know I have a gun. First, guns are a way of life in that neighborhood. I have experience shooting my handgun in a perfectly safe environment where I have to follow strict rules to shoot to make sure everyone is safe. Those rules and perfect environment do not exist in that neighborhood. Gunshots happen frequently and any one wishing me harm in that neighborhood is surely packing heat. They know how to draw quickly. They know the signs to look for when someone might draw on them. They know how to move like lightning if someone beats them to the draw. They outnumber me.
I know how to shoot at a target perfecting my stance and taking all the time I need to aim correctly.
Given that scenario, my odds are much better being respectful and, if faced with a group wishing me harm to ask for mercy instead of drawing my firearm. Yes there is a big part of me (the gung-ho macho side) that thinks defending myself and drawing my weapon is the way to go. Odds (which if one is thinking intelligently is what should be used to reason with and not one's pride when it comes to life and death situations) is what matters. Odds for survival when confronted by a couple of armed men say to keep your gun in your holster.
It's a little different defending on my own turf however. In my neighborhood or areas I am use to, I would agree with you.
Given the bear scenario, for a bear to be close enough to maul you, you are not going to be able to draw and even if you can, you are just going to make it mad.

I spend a lot of time in Riodoso NM as my family owns a cabin there. Black bears roam the streets there and are smart enough to get into the supposed bear-proof dumpsters. They pull the hummingbird feeders off of the trees they are hung on, sit on their ass like a human and hold the huming bird feeder between their hind feet and un-skew the top with their front feet and then drink the syrup like it was a mug of beer. These are very smart creatures that are basically cohabitating with humans and don't turn into Rogue animals like some suggest happens when a bear eats human food. The folks in Riuodoso know to respect them and give them distance.
I have been on the porch of the cabin eating Cheetos when a bear came around the corner, looked at me as if to say "drop the Cheetos and go inside for a while" , which is exactly what I did and the bear ate my Cheetos and walked to the neighbor's yard. If this can happen on a regular basis with no maulings, then a gun in a state park to protect against a bear is rediculous. If a bear is in the park you are in and you are awake you are going to be able to see it in time to walk away. If you are asleep it will leave you alone as long as you leave it alone…at least the chances are so slim that you will be attacked that preparing yourself for that attack is about as unnecessary as putting on an electrically insulated rubber suit to protect you against a lightning strike. Furthermore, by bringing a gun you put put people at higher risk of harm than the amount of safety you recieve by carrying it.

"That bing said, if I am in south Dallas broken down, the very worst thing I could do is let them know I have a gun. First, guns are a way of life in that neighborhood."

I had just such an experience in precisely that kind of neighborhood long ago. Funny thing is, the guy who came within a neuron misfire of ending my young life was one of Chicago's finest. I learned a very basic rule then and there about humans and bears: Stay the he!! out of such neighborhoods. It's a lot easier than dealing with all the hassles that come with packing heat or throwing yourself on the mercy of a being for whom such a concept is alien, and leaves you free to concentrate your energy on what brought you to the mountains in the first place, or the movie you were going to see, bar you were going to visit, etc. My 2 cents.

Interesting reading, for a UK native who's worse worry is being attacked by midges. :)

That Ruger LCR barrel is WAAAY too short. The muzzle velocity would be too low for proper damage.

Get a REAL magnum a .44 magnum in a 4" barrel Smith & Wesson or Tarus titanium frame.
Then you will have light weight and a bear stopper IF you get decent head shots.

"Get a REAL magnum a .44 magnum in a 4" barrel Smith & Wesson or Tarus titanium frame.
Then you will have light weight and a bear stopper IF you get decent head shots."

With a weapon like that you'd be lucky if you didn't put the second round in your own head due to the recoil. ;0]

I carried a 3" 629 for several years in the Bob, hand loads w/ 220 grain 3/4 jacketed (I think Speer) bullets, these were slightly overloaded by a few grains- when I sighted it in w/ these hand loads (6-8 rounds) it literally bruised my hands!!!!

I can tell you that w/ .44 "snakeshot" in it was a grouse killing machine and didn't kick a bit :)

That was a long time ago and bear encounters have been studied much more closely; these days I just carry bear spray when wondering into grizzly country- no question which one I would rather have in a bear encounter

I met an Alaskan hunting guide who kept a pistol just because it was the only thing that he could us if a bear attacked him in his tent. Bear spray obviously isn't going through a tent fly.
If I was going to Alaska and worred about that I think I'd use a different strategy. I think I'd cut the bottom off my tent and sew velcro there. That would keep the bugs out but I could tear out in any direction I needed too if a bear paid a visit. Off course in non-buggy areas I just use my tarp.

Once you backpack in AK several times and come face to face with Browns you will realize that they don't want any trouble. Spray and guns are a waste of time and weight, unless you are inexperienced and paranoid.

"Paranoia self-destroyaaaa…." :)

Enjoy nature..dont plan on how to destroy it furhter IMHO.

I have chased off many bears in the Sierras. I have come within a few feet of an enormous male, actually inside my truck where my daughter was sleeping and a half eaten hamburger had yet to be thrown out, with boxes of food not yet in the bear box, and chased him off. I have run into another within ten feet coming around the trail and chased him off. I have had my pack gone through in the middle of the night. I have been in my tent with my three young children with a bear sniffing right at the door and chased it off.

Would any of those circumstances have led you to go for the gun?

I personally think it very wimpy if your ego feels the need to carry a firearm into an area where there are other campers. You can rationalize all you want about protecting your children in a tent, but it is more than a little sociopathic to increase the danger to those around you. And I don't care what kind of training you've had. Taking a shot at close range in a campground has many orders of magnitude greater chance of striking your neighbor than them dying from every other possibility combined.

My family has a long history of firearms, hunting, and collecting but the sensibilities we have gained lead us to leave those toys at home when we will be around other folks. And when it comes to the wilderness, guns are toys.