Jan 21, 2007 at 5:30 pm #1221343
@bdavisLocale: Mt. Lassen - Shasta, N. Cal.
I wrote Robyn Benincasa, the captain of the Team Merrell/Wigman Adventure, an email question (from their website) after reading Dr.J's discussion of KlearWater purifier treatment (it requires no mixing) — At:
Dr.JR mentioned they (the Team) used it for mouthwash and a cleansing / astringent for minor wounds, abrasions, etc.
What I wanted to know was how much KlearWater to use in how much water for these purposes. She got back to me very quickly, as follows::
"Hey Bill–believe it or not, Klearwater is safe to ingest straight from the bottle, but for mouthwash, we put about 10 drops into 1/4 cup of water (just a little in the bottom of our water bottles) and swish it around for about 60 seconds before spitting it out. For wounds, we just put it straight from the dropper into the wound. No dilution necessary. Sometimes it stings a little, but for the most part, it doesn't. And it keeps wounds/blisters pretty darn clean if you can apply it a few times a day and then bandage it back up. All the Best, Robyn Benincasa"
This is way cool to know about and I see KlearWater appearing in my pack and life. Multi-tasking along with Dr. Bonner's soap — oughta solve a lotta different issues with a couple small microlite dropper bottles from the Gear Shop.
The Team Merrell/Wigmam Adventure website is at:Jan 22, 2007 at 2:20 am #1375202
@pjLocale: LazyBoy in my Den - miss the forest
I'd really like to see a comparison b/t similar wounds, one treated in the way suggested (i.e., several times a day) and one treated w/o Klearwater in order to understand how much longer the wound treated w/K.W. takes to heal. Obviously, both wounds must NOT become infected for this to be a legitimate comparison. Also, by wounds, i'm assuming she means minor cuts that do not require suturing???
Believe it or not, certain treatmnents to prevent infection can cause tissue damage that actually delays healing. Just one example of this is Bacitracin ointment. Too frequent reapplication and use for too long a period of time, can delay healing.Jan 23, 2007 at 7:06 pm #1375475
@trackerLocale: New England
Something tells me that you are'nt going to want to be transfering this from it's original bottle, which I believe is glass. Oxidation is going to occur and that may unstabilize the original solution to ineffectiveness, just a thought.Jan 23, 2007 at 7:49 pm #1375483
@bdavisLocale: Mt. Lassen - Shasta, N. Cal.
pj and Gene,
Very good points. I am not sure if pouring the KlearWater in a MicroDropper bottle will cause "premature oxidation." But, the comments by Dr.J and the stuff I read about it indicate that it has a relatively short shelf life after being opened.
pj — I had similar thoughts but don't know how to find out about the effects of such treatments, like Neosporen or KlearWater or idoine or alcohol, etc. – vs. nothing or clean water — my theory is it depends on how long it is going to take to get back to a doctor, if possible, or be transported out and back to a doctor. In that case the antiseptic preventing infection becomes the big issue, and in my experience not having a wound close or start to seal and heal can be a benefit when it comes to getting it cleaned and sutured later.
Clearly if a wound needs suturing it is a problem, thus I carry a curved needle and dental floss — but, I dread the thought of doing it, sans anesthetic and with a couple of extra strength Tylenol or Advil. bdJan 24, 2007 at 12:24 pm #1375566
I've always used bleach to purify water but I've been thinking lately about the weight of its liquid content. So I've been looking into using the chlorine powder used to sanitize pools. However, it comes in bulk and since I don't have a pool, most would probably be wasted. Does anyone else have any experience with this?
In the ER, I no longer use betadine, a form of iodine, on open wounds since iodine causes tissue damage. I'm not sure where chlorine stands here. There is significant disagreement in the medical community about the best approach to wound cleansing. Latest news: an isotonic (0.9% NaCl) solution is probably best. The optimal salinity is obtained by adding one level teaspoon of salt to a U.S. pint of water (a U.S. pint is 16 ounces or a little less than a half liter). Alternately, you can add one-quarter teaspoon of salt to 4 ounces (0.12 liter) of water. I would boil the water first…
MikeJan 24, 2007 at 12:37 pm #1375569
By the way, the main issues with wound care are removing as much of the bio-burden (bacteria, parasites, etc.) as possible as soon as possible; removing debris; and removing dead tissue, which acts as "food" for bacteria. That's why puncure wounds are more problematic than abrasions and avulsions: it is more difficult to flush a puncture wound adequately. Covering an abrasion or avulsion until healing tissue forms over the site helps prevent bacteria from secondarily getting into the wound. Depending on the circumstance, a puncture wound should be covered but usually allowed to heal by secondary intention, meaning from the inside out. Otherwise an abscess could form, causing more significant problems.Jan 24, 2007 at 12:59 pm #1375571
@btomskyLocale: San Francisco Bay Area
I repackaged KlearWater into BPL MiniDrop dropper bottles for a few trips, and indeed experienced its short shelf life. Well, I guess repackacking sorta obviates the use of the term "shelf life"…
In my experience, after a week on the trail, the Klearwater was barely yellow. After two weeks, it was essentially colorless. Keeping it in the bottom of my pack, as cool and dark as possible helped slightly, but didn't really solve the problem.
I have since switched to Aquamira to avoid the risk entirely.Jan 24, 2007 at 1:40 pm #1375579
Michael, I'm sorry I can't remember the specific source but I read a WHO report some time ago about treating water with bleach. The short of it is that in order to kill the nasties so much bleach was required that it made the water unpalatable. Look to the Chlorine Dioxide treatments like AquaMira, Micropur, and Klearwater among others. Thanks for the info on isotonic solutions. I now carry an irrigation syringe and will use treated or boiled water and a little salt if I have it. By the way, an irrigation syringe is great for filling alcohol stoves as well.Jan 24, 2007 at 3:40 pm #1375597
Eric: if you can find it, I'd like to see the WHO report. The latest I got is that 10 drops of liquid bleach in one gallon of water suffices but I suppose that depends on the source of water.
Although not strictly lightweight backpacking (I need to bring this extra stuff as medical director) I carry a portable Water Pik and charge it with a solar array. It's great for wound cleansing and dental hygiene (yes, I use two different heads for each activity!).Jan 24, 2007 at 4:28 pm #1375602
The American Red Cross and FEMA recommend adding 16 drops (1/8 teaspoon) of bleach (5.25% to 6% Sodium hypochlorite) per gallon of water as an initial dose. Let the water stand for 30 minutes and if it doesn't smell of bleach add another 16 drops and wait. If it still doesn't smell find another source of water.
I'm still looking for the WHO reference.Jan 24, 2007 at 5:35 pm #1375604
Still not the one, but very interesting, and mentions 8 out of 9 study families dropping out due the objectionable taste of free chlorine, probably due to improper dosing. It also states that free chlorine is less effective against Cryptosporidium parvum oocysts and Mycobacteria species. Ozone and Chlorine dioxide are effective against Cryptosporidium parvum oocysts and Mycobacteria species. Chlorine dioxide does have the issue of chlorite as a toxic by-product. The report I read was more than likely due to improper dosing as well, or perhaps dosing high enough for Crypto. It dealt with a specific case in Africa, as I recall. I've ended my search. I need something that deals with Crypto. AquaMira or Micropur is my choice.Jan 24, 2007 at 7:25 pm #1375621
Thank-you. I appreciate the references.
My next experiment is to test (in a friendly lab) the UV version of the Pak-Lite (http://www.9voltlight.com/)to see if exposure to it has any sterilizing effects. I asked the inventor of the light what he thought and he wasn't sure if it emits the right frequency of UV light but would be interested in my results. I'll let everyone here know too but it may be months before I get a cooperating lab.Jan 24, 2007 at 9:50 pm #1375637
Douglas FrickBPL Member
>My next experiment is to test (in a friendly lab) the UV version of the Pak-Lite (http://www.9voltlight.com/)to see if exposure to it has any sterilizing effects.
Not likely. The description on the website for the UV Pak-Lite is "395nm – 400nm". UV-C, the particular kind of light needed for sterilization (as in the AquaStar and SteriPEN) is around 252nm – 255nm. An unprotected UV-C LED, mounted as in the Pak-Lite, would also give a nasty sunburn to the user.
I'm looking forward to the invention of a cheap, low-power UV-C LED. It will be a much better solution than the current UV-C sterilizers, for everything from backpacking to municipal water supplies.Jan 25, 2007 at 2:24 pm #1375712
@trackerLocale: New England
I agree Douglas, particularly when it comes to not being able to use any of the current UV sterilizers with Platys.
And that photo you inquired about last week was over in Mokeluia.Jan 29, 2007 at 9:05 pm #1376332
I tried repackaging KlearWater as an experiment. After 3 days in a opaque (white) plastic bottle at room temperature, it was ineffective (clear color).
By keeping it in the original brown glass bottle and refrigerating between trips, I've had a bottle stay effective (yellow color) for over 8 months now. (It was used for short weekend trips, only a few liters at a time, to explain why one bottle has lasted so long.)Feb 24, 2007 at 8:43 pm #1379940
I am considering replacing my micropur tabs with klearwater because of the speedy water treatment they offer. So I emailed them regarding efficacy duration. Here is their reply:
Subject: Re: Klear water efficacy in months?
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 10:55:01 -0800
The "shelf life" for Klearwater is a year. After opening, Klearwater can be used as long as it still has color. I have kept opened bottles for years however gneerally speaking I think you should keep an opened bottle in the fridge for a season. A container that has been in your fridge for years may still be efficacious however it is fragile and after it is removed it could die within a short time. Ask me if you need more information and thank you for using our unique multi-use product."
This does not jive with posters personal experience, whom I tend to trust more than the guys trying to sell it. So, for now, Im sticking with the tabs.Feb 24, 2007 at 9:14 pm #1379943
I switched from Aqua Mira liquids to Micropur tablets. The tablets eliminate the 5-minute mixing step, so in my mind, they are just as fast and effective as Klearwater — but without the short shelf life of the latter. Tablets are also easier to use and lighter weight than liquids.
The active ingredients of all three are identical: chlorine dioxide. After AQ's pre-mixing stage, all three have the same treatment/kill wait time: 15 or so minutes to kill viruses and bacteria. However, more time is required for colder temps. And for the bigger and more stubborn protozoa — up to 4 hours of treatment time may be required for all brands.
I do not believe there is any time advantage of Klearwater over Micropur.Feb 25, 2007 at 9:30 am #1379962
I have used KlearWater (XiniX)for several years. Seems the advice to Brett was correct. The key is leaving KlearWater in the original container if you want long life. The reply seemed to me to mean using the original container–even in Dr. J's original write-up it indicated that the manufacturer did not recommend using the dropper bottles however I do and throw out the unused.
Also the pills (all come from Engelhard) are designed to release at a predetermined rate. Also quoting Dr. J, I believe, you need to use the full time. They are great for emergency only. Also, ever try to wash hands or treat wounds with a pill?Feb 25, 2007 at 10:08 am #1379963
I like the idea of keeping a bottle in the refrigerator between trips, and evidently using that storage technique as well as keeping it in the original tinted glass bottle, it will last a long time. I'll give it a try.Feb 25, 2007 at 11:48 am #1379975
Brett – You're welcome.
Linda — No, I don't wash my hands or sanitize a wound with tablets. However, considering the cost of Klearwater, I WOULDN'T use it for handwashing anyway. Imagine how quickly a bottle might be used up for hand sanitizing after doing one's "business"! :)
I use the much cheaper and more effective anti-bacterial Purell hand sanitizer instead. For wounds, I would first wash / irrigate with clean water, apply a dap of Purell, then band aid. No worries about the added cost of Klearwater or the hassles of refrigeration, short shelf life and need to count drops… YMMV, of course.Feb 26, 2007 at 9:32 am #1380114
I don't usually post but can't let this pass.
Look at the Purell label. Alcohol. 99.9% of "Germs."
What happened to 6 log, 4 log, 3 log kills for bacteria, virus, giardia. Purell very risky at best. If you want to save money, just bring some isopropyl alcohol, no need to get Purell. Stay light, find one product for all!
I have been ill in the field in remote area. Bad experience. Now I just buy the best available. Spending 13 bucks to save my trip is well worth it. I have used KW for wounds. It burned a bit but worked well. Cleaned wound, applied band aid, applied KW through the holes. Never had a shelf life issue but I keep in the bottle in the glass/plastic container. Plan to buy the Dr. RJ recommended droppers. One more note. I have read that those so-called chlorine dioxide pills do not work on bacteria in film where most bacteria are anyway. Anyone know about this.Feb 26, 2007 at 1:57 pm #1380144
.Feb 28, 2007 at 8:09 pm #1380505
Douglas FrickBPL Member
Here is a new thread about mechanical as well as chemical water treatment.Mar 1, 2007 at 2:27 am #1380536
@pjLocale: LazyBoy in my Den - miss the forest
Fred, search the Forums for the term "biofilm". That's the issue to which you refer.
Also, check the BPL On-Line store. There might(???) be an article reprint for purchase (a couple of bucks or less???) that comes from a back BPL print mag issue (issue #2, IIRC???) that presents University research performed by DrJ & a student in this area.Mar 8, 2007 at 10:01 pm #1381686
Speaking of Purell hand sanitizer, has anyone else used it for poison ivy/oak exposure? I have and depending on the time since exposure, it worked great for decontaminating the resin.
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