Cottage Stagnation and Recent Gems

[David Ure]

NM

[Jamie Shortt]

Christy, I did an all REI list under 10 lbs it includes packed and carried items. It is on my site….

LytW8_Gear_Lists

You might also find the cheap list interesting as well. I have an update to the cheap list that is under $300 when ever I get around to updating it.

Jamie

[Jamie Shortt]

David, I have found REI to change constantly. My list will have some of this as well, but right now the Golite quilts are not available at REI online, I assume same for stores. Also I don't think REI has ever carried Montbell, at least I have never seen it for sale on line or in store. Doesn't look like the siltarp is available either, but I am pretty sure it was at one time. The jam pack is on sale and only 1 of 3 golite items shown so REI might be dropping golite altogether or just waiting for new season's line up. I can confirm that you can at least buy the micropur tablets in the store:) Again my REI list is old and will probably have many items no longer available, but when I first published it I did confirm you could order each item on the list onine at the time.

If you check out my basic ultralight list it looks alot like yours. Mine needs updating though. The main difference between my basic list and ultralight list or REI list is I allowed myself to use online sources for gear like campsaver.com or backcountrygear.com. I think it stakes more knowledge to branch out beyond REI and buy online.

I consider buying/obtaining gear to be a skill into itself. Least amount of skill is just go to REI; next is REI+ online like campsaver or backcountrygear; advanced buyers can expand into cottage sources; most advanced specify what they what from cottage (custom made to your requirements); and last group simply makes their own gear.

Jamie

[rOg w]

deleted

[John S.]

REI did carry a few Montbell items back in abouts 2003-2004. That is where I bought my down inner jacket with the snaps, no zipper.

[C Nugget]

Jamie,

You stated, "And heck if you really just want a 12 lb or less kit you can easily get this from REI, and I'd go as far to say a 7 lb kit from campsaver.com"..

I just wanted to see it.. Much food for thought. A hearty thanks for the detailed gear list link on your blog site. I will study it more. Clelland's book has been a big help as well. I was actually just on your site but didn't look at ultralight list because I just didn't think I could do it.

There are limits to the lists…

I understand that buying gear is a skill and one I still don't have. Purchases come with much thought and mulling over and then it seems, I can still get it wrong. I lack the experience in the field, things I think work, don't always. I have been trying to lighten my pack for awhile now and pretty sure it's not under 12lbs. It's a struggle and sometimes frustrating to read that it can be done with much less thought and implied more ease.

"Blow Joe who knows nothing can just go to REI and do it easily one stop shopping"(Just as an example). I wouldn't guarantee that if Blow Joe walked into REI knowing nothing, he would be walking out with a 12lb base weight… even if he had a gear list to work with. His wallet would be lighter and most likely his pack would be heavier. I bought a Pinnacle at REI and I was advised that the pack wouldn't really hold any kind of weight(well there where two of them arguing over that).. I bought it because I knew of the concept as a frameless pack, the torso fit, the price was right & it was WAY lighter than my last pack. "Joe" isn't going to know that he must stick with the list. A staffer can easily sway a noob into many recommend heavier items. You have to have knowledge(know what your looking for) or someone to back you up during the buying process. The Pinnacle has been a 'swonderful bag for me… yet, it still appears to be overweight by most ultralight standards. For me to lighten up further, I could also alter my pack further but this also takes time and knowledge. "Joe" isn't going to want to cut his brand new pack up.

I also don't have an endless supply of money so some of the mistakes I've made, I have to live with. It's hard on one hand always reading "just go to REI and walk out with under 12lbs" when on the other hand, I'm also told, I should be making mindful smart purchases. It's not just about getting 12lbs @ REI but to also have gear that works for the individual it is intended for. To clarify, I don't just buy gear at REI. It was because it has been said it CAN be done. I would rather do cottage if I could. I'm not ready for a tarp/raingear just yet and neither are my hiking partners. Also, I might need more underwear… Giggle. I do mostly 8-10 day trips too.

That being said, if you want to help me get my gear load under 12 lbs that would be supertastic. :P

Other examples:
I'm struggling with my sleeping bag.. I sleep cold.. ubber cold. So I figure I need a 20 degree bag. My current bag is a synthetic 2lbs 4oz and 35 degrees and doesn't keep me warm in the summer, not close at all. I don't fit slim bags but I would try a quilt. I've considered the Kelty 20, but I'd basically be trading same weights spending more money and still not shedding any weight.. Actually I'd be adding 4oz but more likely to sleep without shivering. I've done lots of reading about various bags but it's still hard to make that final decision based on just what you've read.

Because of some hip issues and being a side sleeper, I could not use a Standard Blue Foam as a mattress.. I mean, I could technically and have tried it, I can also be very grumpy and sore. Not much enjoyment in that… I have a 16oz pad that works but it's not in the ubber light zone either.

I love all the gear lists but to me, it's just not that easy… To become ultralight you've spent time and money and experience getting there… After all that, maybe it's easy to make gear lists but it probably wasn't simple or easy getting there. I appreciate learning from it so I don't make more mistakes… but easy for me, it is not :P

-christy

[James holden]

jamie …

that was simply my point exactly … it is not that any mainstream gear is any better that cottage gear … but it is now more widely available IMO … this means sales, discount, no questions asked return policies, the ability to try it on, and no waiting periods

IMO if you can get it under 10-12 lbs, which yr REI list shows … its a very viable and for some people, perhaps superior option to cottage

crhisty …

if REI stuff is too heavy … simply return it … or if it doesnt work … i see threads all the time about gear that doesnt work out here … wouldnt it be nice if people could return it to REI instead of selling it at a bit of a loss on gear swap, which they cant do anyways if they are non members

if a person chooses to use cottage gear its up to them … but there are quite a few light and fast sponsored climbers, skiers, runners, and other athletes that are pushing the physical and mental limits with "mainstream" gear that is getting lighter IMO …

[spelt with a t]

You might look into a hammock if you find you just can't get comfortable on the ground.

[Jamie Shortt]

Eric, Thanks for helping me to understand something I was struggling with, I am on the same page as you.

Christy, My apologies for making it sounds easy. It took a lot of dedicated time and effort and yes some money to get to where I am at. If interesting the details, my story did make it into a BPL article some time ago. If you go to my home page http://www.lytw8.com you can find a link to it "Jamie's Lightweight Testimony". I think it will show that I didn't just walk into REI and one day and I was done, but interesting enough the story did begin by me just walking into REI.

I purposefully promote REI for new folks to lightweight BPing that don't have tons of money to spend. Why? they have actual stores so you can try things on, have the REI outlet that often has great sales and sometimes an additional 30%, each quarter you get 20% coupon, and MOST importantly REI wants you satisfied so they will take back anything you have purchased that is not right for you (now matter how used it is). My recommendation is to use this liberally but not take advantage of it.

If twelve pounds is a target then the Transition Lighweight List is probably the best for it. It has a framed pack and double wall tent. It was right at 12 lbs and still used stuff entirely from REI (at the time I made it) and walmart. Saving coins with a down Kelty cosmic 20 and upgrading to an inflatable will only add about a pound of weight. I found a base weight of 12-14 lbs really changed my backpacking experience in a positive way without any downside.

Jamie

[W I S N E R !]

Wow is right.

Rog Wilmers, that was a very well articulated post.

[Diplomatic Mike]

Is it not obvious that without the UL cottage industry, you wouldn't be able to buy a full kit of UL gear from the mainstream manufacturers?
Two proverbs come to mind. One involves not biting a hand, and the other is something about a goose laying 'shiny' eggs.

[rOg w]

deleted

[Nick Gatel]

Roger,

You stated what I tried to do at the beginning of this thread. Good job.

[j lan]

Rog for BPL President!

To be honest, I have not learned a single thing about lightening my pack from Ryan Jordan in the 3 years I have been here. All of the forum members and the rest of the staff I learn from almost daily. I did enjoy his posts about getting out on trips with his kids. More of those please RJ.

[Franco Darioli]

There is no stagnation at all , not in the cottage nor in mainstream outdoor manufacturing industry.
What happens is that the more we know , the less we are impressed with something new.
Same reason why many feel that "salespeople know less and less".

Lets pretend that you know nothing at all about tents.
You walk into REI , it has 10 on display and you get all overwhelmed about the choice and the incredible knowledge the sales person has (remember that at this point everything is new to you…)
Fast forward 10 years and hundreds of hours on the Net and .. you know more about tents than most and ,well, there isn't all that much that is new , is there ?

Another aspect is that of course we are only enthused by what is of interest to us.
Personally I don't think that taking fish out of the water and shoving them back is all that much fun so I don't really care if there was a 1oz Tenkara rod, but if you do, that would be something (?)
Or, for example, if HH came out with a full hammock kit, including all the winter bits, at 1 lbs exactly, it would not make any impact on me at all because I simply don't like hammocks.
In other words, stagnation is not a "fact" it is just the perception of someone that sees no new toys of interest for himself , but others do…
BTW, to state that products should be revolutionary and not just evolutionary makes as much sense to me as asking why someone does not just fix the economy.

Franco

[Danny Milks]

Well put Franco

[Ken Thompson]

Well put Franco. +1

[Jane Freeman]

Rog :) Thank you for articulating what I've been thinking. Im a happy person that can let things go but this thing keeps meandering into my consciousness. After a long deliberation I finally signed up recently. My entire reason was to continue outfitting myself for an extended hike. Almost all of my gear was purchased from the good people of the cottage industry, so the twenty something bucks that this site gained from me was almost entirely due to these small business people. They also inspired me to create some, I feel, inventive gear that I was going to share but the harsh tone has left me at this point unwilling. A PHD is no excuse for unkind or unbusiness-like behavior and a pedestal is unstable place to be or defend As a newbie to this site I'm not impressed with those few offending paras and enough so that I actually feel there should be some words of apology. I would very much appreciate it and I think some others would as well My very first introduction to something smacking of UL was Willi Unsoeld suggesting that I ditch my hiking boots for a pair of sneakers in the 70's. So, I don't know maybe it's a generational thing … The quality or thoughtfulness of communique that is…. Thank you for your time.

[C Nugget]

I agree: +1

I was really excited about continuing to research gear for my travels. This article put me in a bit of slump.

[John S.]

I think it was written as an end-of-year kick-in-the-rear (tough love?) meant to stimulate the cottage gear makers to make things happen in the coming year. Ryan probably knew it could be or would be perceived as harsh. A few sentences could have been left out and the article would have achieved the same "goal".

[David S.]

I realize BPL is mostly about gear, but here's part of the stagnation problem for me:

"Maybe this evolution of ultralight philosophy is exactly where we've been headed all along:

Pack less, buy less, and love what you do buy."

Shouldn't the rally cry of ultralight backpacking be about backpacking and not gear? I mean, the 5.2 oz versus 4.6 oz statement is right, that's all irrelevant, but really so is the innovation or lack thereof if the travel itself isn't the focus.

Sure, my kit has improved so much in the last ten years, but it's all a moot point if I'm really putting myself out there, actually backpacking. Gear and the obsession over improving one's kit in one way or another is enjoyable, but it should all be a vehicle to actually getting out there and getting others out there. The make/model/price/weight of equipment is secondary to where it takes you.

[Nick Gatel]

Exactly. Measure your inventory of days off each year and divide it into the number of hiking days. The number could be called something like BP Life Efficiency. Anything above 50% is good. Instead of paring this number down we would want to increase it. More is better.

[Matthew Perry]

Ryan Jordan's "Cottage Stagnation and Recent Gems" article makes me chuckle. It should have been called:
"Narcissistic, Elitist, Spoiled Brat With Delusions Of Grandeur Trying To Remain Relevant and Edgy So People Renew Their Subscriptions And I Don't Have To Get A Real Job."

I also find it hilarious that Mr. Jordan (or Dr, or PHD, or Witch Doctor, etc) named the Backcountry Boiler as one of his 2011 Backpacking Light Staff Picks…not because it's not deserving of it (it IS), but because, not too long ago, he was recommending we all buy the rip-off clone, the M Kettle. Ryan had NO IDEA that Devin had been working on the Boiler for over a year on HIS (Ryan's) own site! The BPL community had to tell him. Talk about "out of touch" and "stagnation". For years Ryan has been neglecting the quality of the articles here on BPL. I mean, really…how many freakin' UL down sweater articles can we read in one year without wanting to poke our eyes out with a SUL titanium spork (cut in half, of course!)? How about a new site name while were at it? Packrafting-Light? Tenkara-Light? That's some reasons i did not renew my subscription this year, along with lots of others, i'm sure. Seems to me like BPL just "Jumped The Shark" with this latest article of his.

Instead of attacking the cottage community, Mr. Jordan should have been thanking them for their contributions and encouraging them to keep up the good work! How many of us would still be using a 6 pound tent if not for Henry Shires? Or lugging it all around in an 8 lb. Osprey pack if there was no Glen Van Peski to create Gossamer Gear for us? I know that i would personally still be freezing my butt off in my hammock if Jacks-R-Better had not been created. It seems to me that the only "stagnation" going on around here is Backpacking Light itself. Thank God for the Forums!

At this point, Ryan is coming across as the William Shatner of the backpacking community. Some may criticize this as harsh, but no more so than Ryan's article was.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lul-Y8vSr0I

M

[dan mchale]

I got to thinking again and something made me google 'innovation is dead'. It looks to be a current theme circulating the vast halls of the internet. Whad da ya know!?

http://techcrunch.com/2011/09/12/max-levchin-and-peter-thiel-innovation-in-the-world-today-is-between-dire-straits-and-dead/

http://coconutheadsets.com/2011/10/30/innovation-is-dead-it-was-killed-by-innovation/

http://www.businessweek.com/innovate/NussbaumOnDesign/archives/2008/12/innovation_is_d.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FLNPHkySj58

http://www.innovationexcellence.com/blog/2011/10/05/steve-jobs-is-dead-whither-innovation-at-apple/

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xmwsid_peter-thiel-on-the-effect-of-stagnation-on-silicone-valley_lifestyle

&

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xnmtf8_how-to-deal-with-a-hangover-at-work_lifestyle#rel-page-12

[Dirk Rabdau]

I wonder if Ryan would have worded his editorial differently if he knew it would elicit this type of response.

I will discuss his criticisms from another point of view, of someone who also used to be in the sporting goods business.

My family owned an independent sporting goods store for quite a long time – we sold snow ski / snowboard equipment, backpacking / camping equipment, fishing equipment and shoes and clothing. I can't speak for today's business climate, but I can speak for the times more than decade ago – the margins in sporting goods were fairly small on most hard goods (equipment). The simple fact is that the equipment is costlier to begin with, stores must carry a wide assortment to meet the needs of its customers and at the end of the season, the remaining gear generally was discounted significnatlyto get it to move off the shelves. Thus, the actual margins enjoyed by a sporting goods store, when averaged over all the hard goods, is less than one might think. I am sure there are others who work at stores who can speak to this fact.

Clothing, on the other hand, has a broader appeal because you can wear a technical jacket around town. Most people shop for fashion as much as functionality. Nothing wrong with that. Yes, I have read often here and on other boards people decry the gradual migration many stores have made from a "gear heads" paradise to more of a mass consumer clothier. (I am looking at you, REI.) But frankly, it would be very, very difficult to sell enough hard gear to justify the capital investment and risk. REI understands this and broadened its appeal to beyond the hardened outdoorsman (and woman) by selling an image of the "active" adult (and family). This is reflected in its clothings lines and much of the gear. But hey, it does make it possible to carry things that would only appeal to backpacking enthusiasts.

Backpacking gear at my family's store wasn't a huge part of our income – less than 10 percent. Why? Well, how many backpacks/sleeping bags/tents does a person need? (Ok, the backpackinglight.com crowd excluded). I am talking the average hiker. Like many posters in this thread have pointed out, backpacking is a fairly simple sport that doesn't require a lot of stuff. And the gear generally lasts a long time if you take even decent care of it.

For these reasons I imagine few, if any, of the cottage manufactures are getting rich producing backpacking gear even during the best of times. I can only speak for myself, but in recent years I've spent less on gear because I've re-prioritized spending habits to conform with the harsh economic realities. (And I have a good career). I imagine many of you have modified your spending habits as well. As a result, it is fair to assume many gear manufactures have chosen to curb product development accordingly. It makes little sense to invest a ton into R&D if you have little hope of recouping your initial investment.

It would be great to build a double-walled tent out some new high tech material that weighs only 12 ounces. But if the cost of the materials would effectively double the price of the tent over the 16 ounce version, how many of you would be willing that steep cost to drop four ounces? There is really a sweet spot in terms of pricing for most gear, so manufactures must build gear with this in mind. Unless you have a prestige brand (think Leica), few people are going to pay a premium that much above "market norms".

Which goes to the heart of innovation. We are seeing innovation now. Maybe not as much as during the boom times, but it is there. Among greatest incentives for innovation is the potential for profit. The people who make the gear we love can only continue to innovate if they have the capital to do so. By purchasing gear from the cottage manufacturer, you are investing in future products and innovation.

Yes, people and companies can grow complacent. And that complacency will be rewarded in the marketplace only as long as someone else doesn't come along and invent a better (and lighter) mousetrap. Right now, any perceived lack of innovation may be a result of companies just trying to hold on and weather this economic downtown.

Dirk

[Author]

Posts