Altai Skis: The Hok Ski and X-Trace Universal Binding Review

I'm still very much a beginner in terms of skiing as I've only got into it seriously in the last few years mostly as a way to access the mountains in winter, tele turning (the kneeling turn used by the skiers in the hok videos) is harder to learn and much harder to master then the fixed heel alpine turn. Tele turns are fun, beautiful and soulful and keep you in touch with the snow…I've spent days lapping small powder filled clear cuts on karhu guides and light plastic and leather boots and it is an absolute blast but when the snow gets tricky or the steep I often trip up and face plant or catch a tip and tweak a knee. Shorter fatter skis might help this to some extent but I would also worry about going over the handlebars on them more…I end up survival skiing a lot (traversing back and forth across the slope and kick turning) which can be imposible in tight trees.

In comparison, after a couple of seasons on AT gear (and 3 days lift skiing in my life) I can confidently pick my way down the fall line weird refrozen black diamond terrain in heavy fog, make tight turns through steep tight trees and blast out chunky snowmobile tracked logging roads by moonlight relying on the stiffness of the skis and boots to absorb even the things I don't see or have time to react too and If I do crash my skis come off my feet instead of blowing out my acl. I'm not doing long multi sport trips like dave and I can definitely see the draw of a shorter ski and multipurpose footwear for that…

Dave equates the Hok's to a hardtail mountain bike and I can see that being an apt description in terms of the terrain one can access for that. For me AT skis are something more, in mountain bike terms it is as if all of a sudden the entire brushy and rugged cascade mountain range is covered in moderate bike trails and slick rock and I can go wherever I want. The gear is more expensive but it is worth it if you use it often…

(Note: I use the term AT or alpine touring interchangeably with the french term rando or randonee. Both of these terms refer to skiing with bindings that have a tour mode and a heel locked down ski mode.

One intriguing option not yet mentioned but often employed by climbers is using one of the silveretta or similar AT bindings with a crampon compatible climbing boot and rope from the knee of the skier to the tip of the ski to provide additional stiffness. This with the longer hok might be a great approach setup but I like the stiffness of a real ski boot…)

Sometimes leaving skins on can slow your descent to get through tight and icy spots.
Use rope climbers and you can turn your skis into snow shoes.

Ryan, I am not dismissing AT gear. Its advantages are extensively documented, and easy to research. I do think that for a wide variety of wooded, nordic terrain other gear will serve most better. Unfortunately my self-indulgent responses early on here only served to obfuscate that.

As Eric's response highlights, prospective skiers will need to match equipment to terrain. I see no benefit in pretending that one article could be any sort of reasonable guide for that, so I didn't even attempt it.

Erin, the question of whether skis might work better than snowshoes for you depends on a lot of factors, some having to do with terrain, some with your personal preferences and ambitions. From what little I know of the Kenai, snowshoes might be the best tool for non-alpine stuff. Very steep, short hills and thick brush tend to favor snowshoes, though for me short, fat skis like the Hoks are the next best thing.

I'd also like to highlight that rando race skis are so light for two reasons: hi-tech construction and dimensions. Top of the line race skis have waists below 70mm and tips skinnier than the waist of the Hoks. Comparing the two is thus rather problematic. I do have some K2s with dimensions almost identical to something like the Dynafit DNA, albeit 10 oz per ski heavier. They're great for firm spring and resort snow, but under other circumstances I prefer to stack the deck more in my favor. A cool fixed heel bushwacking setup might be had by putting some Speed Superlights on the 154 Voile Chargers, though then you're looking at 1300 grams a ski unmounted.

More snow travel articles here would only be a good thing. As the seasonal surge in questions on winter travel shows, the demand exists.

Well, this discussion has certainly wandered around. Which, if you think about it, is pretty apropos, since that is one of the things these types of skis are well suited to.
I think that here we have some differences of opinion that are partially rooted in points of view. If you think like a skier, then anyplace you'd want to ski, anyplace where the skiing would be enjoyable, would be a place where AT or Rando race gear would be more efficient and more effective than ski-shoes. But if you're not thinking like a skier, but instead you just have some spots in mind that you'd like to visit when the ground is snow-covered, spots that may be in thick woods, or brushy, with lots of short, steep ups and downs, then a ski-shoe might just be the ticket. those places are no fun to ski – trust me, I've tried it. And no one would go there for the skiing.
As a backpacker who happens to travel on skis in the winter and spring, I've thrashed around the woods on various skis for many years. I've also spent a fair amount of time in more alpine regions on skis – skied across the Sierra last spring – and yet I hardly think of myself as a skier, since that isn't why I go. I go to see the sights, and to experience the mountains in a different way than I can in the summer. I can definitely see the advantages of AT type gear for the long tours I do in more open terrain. If only I could afford any new skis now. But for thrashing in the woods, I'd take these in a heartbeat. That totally free pivot is great for going up a long climb, and maybe even for a flat kick and glide, but when it's a few sidesteps, and then a 10 foot downhill to a stop, followed by a traversing sidestep and a few choice cusswords, then that in-between sort of connection to the ski that you have with a 3-pin or an NNN-BC binding really comes into it's own.
With dynafits, if you have the heel unlocked and you lift the ski off the snow for a weird sidestep maneuever, the tail of the skis drops down, making it hard to do that kind of thing. And if you lock in the heels, then it's hard in another way. So for that kind of thing, it's just not the tool for the job.
Yes, these are a niche product. But the niche is not just fooling around in the backyard. There are indeed multi-day trips for which I think these would be the most efficient option – it's just that those conditions are such that a lot of people would never want to go there, and thus might not consider that sort of trip in their assessment of these types of skis.
And of course, there is another niche, and that is for the snowshoer who wants a little more speed but not too much. Probably a much larger niche than the multi-day bushwhacking niche.

I can't wait to try these, especially as I have done a fair amount of nordic-type skiing on a low-end Rando Race setup (BD Cult skis, Speed bindings, TLT5 Mountains). But something about the idea of these ski-like objects was very attractive to me, especially for local summer hiking trails where having something slower than skis would be an advantage for a bad skier like myself (skill level seems to influence equipment choices in skiing more than many other sports).

So maybe I'll mount some Dynafit bindings on the Hoks and use 'em with my TLT5 boots.

Jonathan, here's even more evidence that my telemark past has addled my brain ;)

Dave

Just pulled out the scale; the Hoks + 3pin binding + Scarpa T3 is about 50g lighter than my Rando setup (157cm BD Cult, Dynafit Speed, TLT5 Mountain). So essentially no difference.

Exactly: you can (and you indeed deed) assemble a reasonably light ski mountaineering setup on the cheap, that will perform reasonably well across the entire spectrum of moderate-angle touring, the occasional rando race, and even the most extreme ski mountaineering that one dares engage in.
Or spend more on rando race gear to drop additional pounds of weight while still retaining the performance (on the up, on the down, and in between).
Or save some bucks and get a backyard snowtime plaything that, while undoubtedly fun at its intended purpose, is very ill-suited for actual wilderness travel (given both its shape and the driving-with-the-parking-brake-on intended binding) as well as any higher-angle skiing.

Man, give up on repeating yourself and just admit this is grudgewank already.

For those thinking about mounting alternate bindings on the Hoks, be sure to inquire with the company first. I'm not sure there's enough reinforcing material for something like a dynafit heel piece.

Now granted outdoor lightweight efficient winter travel has many niches, depending on the terrain, and also the traveler’s skills. At one extreme – or rather, entirely non-extreme terrain – where metal edges are not required, the new Skiathlon xc race boots might be ideal for backcountry applications … perhaps paired with SNS Pilot skate bindings for extra lateral control . . . and the new Skintec classic skis. (Or would a wider model be better?)

I agree. Personally, I’m a big fan of regular cross country boots and bindings combined with skis that have the most sidecut in their class. Their class being skis that don’t have metal edges. I know these are heavier than skis meant for the tracks, but they perform much better in the backcountry. As long as the conditions are good and the terrain isn’t that steep, I can go lots of places. I often take such gear in places where I have the flimsiest gear by a long shot. No matter, if the snow is good, and the terrain is not too steep and narrow (steep and wide can simply be traversed). If I was a better skier, then I would stretch the envelope even more. The trickiest part of the process is matching the gear to the conditions. If it is crustier than I expect, I fall down a lot.

I would really like to see the numbers on the Rando Race gear. I was serious before, and now Jim has suggested it as well: A state of the market report for Rando Race Gear (or similar gear) would be great. Even something just laying out specs of example gear and approaches would be nice (not as exhaustive as a SOTM article, but of the same nature). I enjoy the comments, but they are no substitute for a real article. I know some of the prices will raise some eyebrows, but so be it. We are all used to it, and make those sort of trade-offs every day (e. g. $450 for Cuben or $200 for Silnylon).

As an example, I wrote a little spreadsheet of my gear. It may be hard to read (it makes sense to me) but, for example, I have 1742 grams on each foot (boot, binding and ski) with my typical gear. I have less if I’m exclusively on a groomed track, but not that much less. I’m sure I could slash some weight by going with a lighter boot, but probably not that much. On the other hand, I don’t really know, as I’m quite happy with my boot (it is very comfortable).

I believe this is the lightest set you could buy today (without skins or crampons):

DYNAFIT DY.N.A. Evo Boot: Held one last winter, they wouldn't let me use it though…
703grams actual weight on 28.5Mondo. Really cheap aprox 1000€ :( The tester told me it was one of the best downhill boots he had ever seen. Nice walker.

OR

Scarpa Alien, same weight same price. Never seen it.

OR

LaSportiva Stratos, wieght and price beyond my sources. This one seems the most expensive option (full carbon shell).

Ski Trab Race Areo World Cup boards: aprox 700g on 159cm 96/92/65/78mm 859€

DYNAFIT Low Tech Race Auto binding: 117g 700€

This is the lightest RACE PRO gear available outside of pro-teams. My set (used gear) was a bit less than 300€ Dinafit Broad Peak (170cm+-) with TLT speed bindings, crampons, mohair skins, brakes and lashes. My Boots are really old, Lasers and TLT3, maybe this season I'll get a good deal on used tlt5.

I had a pair of Hagan Dolphins 120cm with Silvretta 404 bindings I used for aproach when I was a clumsy alpinist, but they are also really heavy, I bought that for 100€ with crampons and skins a long time ago.

Wow! Really, I had no idea. OK, the boot weights are very good, but they don't surprise me that much. I had heard of things like that, and much of it makes sense. If you use a lot of plastic, you can make a lightweight boot. The big challenge is making it comfortable, especially for hiking. Lots of people say these are, but that varies person by person.

The really impressive thing are the skis. I double checked the weight, and that's what the website says (http://skitrab.com/en-au/c-5-ultra-light/1-race-areo-world-cup.html). I weigh about 150 pounds (give or take a beer or two) so I would probably get the longer ski. But at 720 grams, that is extremely light. Even the heaviest one is under 800 grams. The medium sized ski paired with the binding you mention weighs about 840 grams. To put things in perspective, that is just about what my Motion Crown ski (with binding weighs). In other words, a skinny ski I specifically bought to cruise around in the grooomed, because it is faster and lighter than my general purpose ski, weighs about the same as a metal edged ski with ten times the sidecut. Simply amazing.

Now, to be fair to the cross country world, I didn't buy cross country race skis. You can get cross country skis that weigh 500 grams, and bindings that weigh another 100, saving you over 100 grams over the Skitrab skis. Nonetheless, the Skitrab skis are amazing. It is basically like talking about bicycles and explaining that you prefer a nice light road bike since you just stick to the pavement, and then you pick up the guy's mountain bike and realize it is lighter than yours. No, you don't have an Italian racing bike, but still, it's a road bike (and a good one) yet the mountain bike is lighter. Crazy.

It also begs the question: I wonder if you could use plain cross country boots with those skis? The obvious answer is why bother. You would obviously get much better control with the boots you mention. Still, one of the reasons (I assume) that you get firmer boots when you get curvier skis is because of the weight. In other words, if you tried using regular cross country boots with a pair of Atomic Rainiers, your boots would get thrashed trying to move the skis around. I wonder if it is the sidecut, or the weight that matters?

If they weren't so expensive, I might experiment. As it is, I hope the price drops. It probably will. It is obvious that this is cutting edge engineering, and like a lot of cutting edge engineering, the price drops after a while (as long as other competitors keep up). This is really exciting stuff — I appreciate the information.

Remember: that was the "standard" race gear, if you want to spend big bucks you might get the boots killian uses:

http://www.pierregignoux.fr/GB/PackUltimate.php

Atomic or Fish boards, atk, Haereo or kreuzspite bindings, Crazy jumpsuits…. weight goes down as fast as your money evaporates. Crazy world.

It seems like there is a lot of competition in the boot market, even if the prices are really high. My guess is that this will eventually drop the price, at least for gear almost as light.

I’m curious about the skis. Do any of the really light skis have waxless bottoms? If not, I assume that they are designed for skins on the flats (no kick wax). I notice that a few companies sell some fairly carved skis with waxless bottoms. For example, Rossignol has a waxless ski with dimensions of 123-95-120. Fischer, Madshus and Alpina have similar skis.

I’ll admit that now I finally might very well be repeating myself, but to clarify the state-of-the-market in response to some recent posts:

Skis are all very similar (except for the even lighter Merelli models … which have a very bad reputation for breaking) and weigh a bit over 3 pounds per pair at a bit over 160cm (unless you want to drop as low as 150cm for the women’s minimum, which will save even more weight and gain even more maneuverability in tight quarters). About half a dozen different models are available in the U.S. (way more in Europe), with the cheapest from Hagan and Dynafit (the “Race Performance” model). Cheap used rando skis can be found from Atomic for ~$100: TM:11, MX:11, MX:20.

No ultralight rando race skis are available with patterned bases (i.e., “fishscales” or the misleadingly termed “waxless”). Patterned-base skis are now available in a very wide variety of widths and lengths, and the weights although quite light is still much heavier than rando race skis.
For a rando race ski on lots of rolling terrain, kick wax would work okay (although not as well as on a true double-cambered ski of course). Kickers skins are another option (just keeping them on all the time) or super-skinny mohair skins (sometimes termed “runners”).

Bindings are cheap (~$200 used) if you take on extra weight and go with the non-race Dynafit Speed, but the older Dynafit Low Tech Race is now showing up on eBay fairly regularly (as elite racers upgrade their gear and as wannabe racers go through their equivalent of all the nice road bikes showing up for sale barely used b/c of Lance mania). Another good deal is trying to rack down last year’s Dynafit Low Tech Lite. This year’s Dynafit Low Tech Radical is reasonably affordable by alpine downhill standards if ordered from Europe (not available in North America for some odd reason), but it lacks a completely “flat” touring position, so probably not a good choice for more nordic-esque applications.
Weights vary from about a pound to half a pound, per pair, with mounting screws. And speaking of mounting, this is not for the do-it-yourselfer, unless you’re really good at this kind of work. (I’ve mounted four such pairs of bindings, but I’d had many years of experience with other Dynafit models.)

Boots are now at around three pounds per pair from four different companies (well, except for Merelli with a new custom boot at only . . . two pounds . . . per pair?!?). Near-race boots are available at around four pounds. But for more nordic-esque applications, I think the somewhat dated Scarpa F1 is preferable, especially with modifications:
http://www.wildsnow.com/2180/scarpa-f1-backcountry-skiing-boots/
… and the best part is that since it’s no longer used by rando racers, used prices are about $100 to $200, with good availability. (So in other words, blame the Euro rando race scene for increasingly the price of cutting-edge gear to crazy high levels, but also thank it for creating an affordable used market.)

As for how all this skis, compared to the skiing video footage at the Hok website, I’m able to ski about 4x as fast (in rando races when under time pressure!) on terrain much steeper with far trickier snow. (Yes, the skis are skinnier, but the 125cm length of the reviewed Hok is absurdly short for real skiing, and the lack of any rear cable or other support plus a severely hacked-up telemark boot can’t help matters much.) Here are some old pics from a glacier in the summer:
https://picasaweb.google.com/118364351379631769177/20080821ParadiseGlacier

On firm snow, this is just some mellow skiing, but I think the fairly precise short-radius turns convey the control the gear provides:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oxwdZGAZK7g

Quoting a few prior posts:

“In other words, a skinny ski I specifically bought to cruise around in the groomed, because it is faster and lighter than my general purpose ski, weighs about the same as a metal edged ski with ten times the sidecut.”
– My rando race setup weighs significantly less than my nordic backcountry setup: as was said, it’s as if my mtn bike were to weigh less than my road bike…

“It also begs the question: I wonder if you could use plain cross country boots with those skis? The obvious answer is why bother.”
– Funny you should mention that, since each year I see a guy in this one rando race who does exactly that … and I have exactly the same reaction when I see that setup! (Although I’ve never asked him why/how he came up with that combination.)

“If you use a lot of plastic, you can make a lightweight boot. The big challenge is making it comfortable, especially for hiking. Lots of people say these are, but that varies person by person.”
– Individual fit of course varies immensely. That said, if these boots fit you, they are quite comfy for tromping around. I spent a couple hours on Saturday with trailwork on a rando race backcountry ascent route, and although regular hiking boots would have been lighter, the near-race rando race boots (plastic lower shell, carbon fiber upper cuff) I had on were just as comfy. (And ditto for then hiking down the upper half of the ski area from the summit, which I had hoped would have more snow already made, ugh…)

BTW, at the other end of the spectrum, I see that Rossignol is coming out with a new “OT” version of its X5 nordic boot. For many nordic backcountry skiers, so-called “bar” bindings (i.e., NNN-BC or SNS-BC) are a very attractive option, but unfortunately the boots have really lagged behind the potential of the binding system, so nice to see what looks like an innovative model. (If you’re looking for used, I really like my old Salomon Raid boots – shame that they discontinued it.)

just joined the site because of this article… read it the day it came out, and checked out the after posts, lively group… sooooo doing a honey do project for xmas, low and behold I have a pair of Hok's in the attic in the form of an old pair of water skis; a beautiful mahogany, nice upturn and trailing edge, bindings are right next to them in an old pair of funky snowshoes… sooooo I am thinking I got the flats and downhill covered just need a bit of help with skins for the uphill action… after looking around a bit decide on some worse for ware fishing nets, just Macgyver them on and away I go… I am headed up to see my 84 year old Mom for the holidays just down the street from Crater Lake… am thinking at the very least a couple screws, bicycle inner-tubes and go for a walk in the woods… what can go really wrong right… any way Happy Holidays to you all… loving the site & learning a lot…

The nets will turn your skis into snowshoes, because they're not going to slide. (Unless you were going to make them removable?)

You might watch eBay for a week or two and try to pick up some used "climbing skins" (particularly "Ascension"; there's usually some of the original stock available cheap). It doesn't matter if the skins have sticky glue on the bottom or not, because you're going to want to buy a can of strong glue to make the bond permanent. Then you'll have the same glide-down climb-up capability that's built into the Hok skis. You can experiment with how much of the bottom to cover with skin, to balance slide and grip. (Be sure you put the fur on the right direction!) The Karhu Karver has a 32in x 3.25in skin, and the Meta has a 28in x3.75in skin, so about 104 in^2 is probably a good start.

If you've got a chisel or router, it's probably worth cutting in the leading curved edge of the skin, and maybe even putting in a plate and some screws, to prevent the leading edge from being pulled away from the ski base by snow friction.

Michael, that's a great idea. The lack of metal edges is something to keep in mind, but not a big deal in many cases. If you can think of a way to recess the skin all the way around, that would help with longevity. On the other hand, attaching and removing a skin in the normal fashion would be quick and easy and a good way to get acquainted with the setup to see if it will work.

I decided to create another thread that more generally discusses ski gear, as opposed to this review (or this product). I figure that if someone is interested in some of the items discusses, they may decide to search in "Winter Hiking" section, in which case, they would miss out on some of the useful information here. So, that post is here: http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=57332
and it starts with my comments on Jonathan's last comments. I decided not to copy his comments, but I reference his last comment (which would allow anyone to get to all of the comments).

As to this product, I ordered it, along with the universal bindings. I'll use some other bindings with it as well, but I'll start with that. The next step is to somehow attach some ski crampons, or something similar. When I get to that point, I'll probably start a new thread in Gear, or MYOG. My hope is that with ski crampons, or rope, or something like that, I'll be able to use the Hoks wherever I would normally use snowshoes.

Thank you David for the excellent review!
I'm on the lookout for my first ski setup and like most here, interested in a system that is as lightweight as possible.
For this reason (as well as price and hike-ability) I'm interested in boots with NNNBC bindings. You don't recommend the NNN bindings on the Hok because they have a tendency to break with such a wide ski. Does this include NNNBC bindings? My understanding is that NNNBC bindings are a bit bigger (wider and larger diameter post) therefore more robust.

Cheers,

Paul

Jonathan – Open your mind. AT gear has its advantages as does Nordic gear. What is best depends on your objective and skill level. What a boring world it would be if we all skied on the same gear in the same way.

Catch me if you can – http://teton.outerlocal.com/skiing/nordic-mountaineering-outpost

or Tim Kelley – http://crust.outlookalaska.com/index_about.htm

or Andrew Skurka – http://youtu.be/oZUaa9SjuMM

Great article Dave. We need to get out skiing together. You will like my latest version of Fast Shoes.

Onward,

I long ago opened my mind to nordic backcountry touring gear. I even still own such gear. But then I opened my mind to ultralight rando racing gear. (Well, first it had to come into existence, then I had to learn about it, and finally I had to buy it.)

That kind of gear in your TR certainly made sense back in the era of Steve Barnett's impressive tours (well, impressive for their day and the gear limitations), but as your own TR notes, most of your original ski mountaineering partners have long-since switched to the "light and well-engineered" Dynafit and other "Tech"-style bindings, both touring and racing. (But BTW, the 3-pin weight savings of a couple ounces per foot as compared to a rando race binding will be offset in the touring efficiency after just a short amount of resistance-free strides.) And you admit to being "envious of the new ultra-light randonee [sic] racing boots."

As for your link to Tim Kelley, I already referenced that in an earlier post of mine. ("The only exception to the superiority of rando race gear for BPL’s "lightweight wilderness travel" is xc skate gear under certain conditions in the Eastern Sierra and AK (although that requires excellent fitness, technique, and route planning).")

Dave (& others),

Given that you've shared your experiences with the Marquette BC and the Altai Hok, I'm wondering if anyone has any experience/feedback/comments on LL Bean's Boreal Sliding Snowshoes. As you pointed out, I have concerns about the durability of the permanent skin on the Hok, and like the idea of the positrack "scaled" base (similar to the Marquette) combined with the metal edges (like the Hok). Not a fan of the Berwin bindings, but I'd imagine these would be a little more functional with a 3-pin setup. Similar price range ($225 w/o bindings) to the Marquette and Hok, with some of the best features of both. LL Bean used to sell some of the Karhu's (see below), but they've since exited the market. I think these may be manufactured by Rossignol.

I was tossing around the idea of doing either snowshoes or XC skis this winter to entertain my dog add some variety to my winter sports (downhill has always been my go-to, but I did XC quite a bit growing up), and these 3 products look like an interesting alternative, but I can't decide which to go with!

http://www.llbean.com/llb/shop/68748?feat=66735-ppxs&dds=y
LL Bean Boreal Sliding Snowshoes:

Old LLBean/Karhu:

This is Forrest McCarthy's take on the mini ski set-up:

http://forrestmccarthy.blogspot.com/2011/12/fast-shoes-lightest-binding-is-no.html

I would say that the Altai Skis have one big advantage over the Karhu/LL Bean skis: easily adaptable bindings. You can get several plates that you can then mount different bindings to. Apparently, it is easy to switch between bindings at that point. So, for example, you could spend a winter day with Altai skis and 3 pin (or BC or Telemark) boots. Then in the Spring, you could easily switch to the universal bindings on a day when you want to carry the skis, but not the boots.

As to the strength or weakness of the universal bindings, I haven't tried the bindings on the Altai. I have used the Berwin bindings. I wore them with fairly stiff mid-length boots. I found the bindings (with those boots) to be fairly supportive, but not very flexible. In other words, I could turn really well, but couldn't glide. Some of that could have been the skis (which were short Skiboards). My brother decided to take the bindings and attach them to a block of wood along with a hinge. After adding a bumper and some other niceties, he managed to crank out a very nice setup. I would say it is comparable to McCarthy's setup; I think it has better glide and control, but at a substantial cost in weight.

I write about the whole saga here: http://tinyurl.com/3qrkd8l (this includes a link to my brother's project in the "Success (but not by me)" section).