Wind Jacket Layering Questions – Assistance Request

I would layer the wind shirt OVER the UL parka for the following reasons:

1) To protect the UL Down Parka. I'd rather a cheaper windshirt takes the brunt of the abuse rather than the delicate 15 denier fabric of the UL Down Inner. The windshirt also protects the down inner from moisture as you've got an extra water repellant layer to hopefully keep the UL Down Inner dry.

2) The surface of the UL Down Inner Parka is undulating, so by layering the wind shirt over you will trap more air between the inner and the wind shirt. If you layer it under the inner, you're not really trapping any extra air. This might not be the most scientific point here, but it makes sense to me and it's just a minor reason.

3) The insulating power of down really goes down if air/wind is moving through it. The whole point of down is to hold the air still, but the shell of the UL Down Inner isn't 100% wind proof by itself. When you add a windshirt over the down inner, you reduce the airflow thru the down inner, and thus make it warmer.

I sized up on my windshell to be worn over my lighter insulated jackets (UL Inner Parka and Nanopuff)- this is pretty typical. The UL Inner Parka is cut trim and has minimal baffle height so it can be layered under a shell, not over. The latter can be done of course but this isn't really what that jacket was intended for, it's not a traditional parka.

FWIW, the UL Inner Parka doesn't cut wind that well on its' own, it's not bad, but the stitch through baffling has it's limits with a steady cold breeze. Throwing on a windshell over the UL Inner Parka makes a world of difference and locks in heat in my experience.

Just to make sure I'm on the same page, when I speak of a wind jacket, I'm speaking of a Rab Cirrus, Patagonia Houdini, North Face Verto, etc made from 7D to 15D Pertex Quantum. Most likely 15D Quantum material.

When it's warm enough just to wear a base layer and wind jacket, will sizing up the Wind jacket to fit over the UL Inner Parka cause any issues as it will be a baggy fit. Again if I wear under the UL Inner Parka, I'd wear a L and over I'll need an XL.

Thanks again.

Dan

Yeah those garments are what we're thinking of when we say wind shirt. I personally like to use a windshirt that is a bit cheaper than the ones you mention and maybe a bit more durable (ie. 30 denier). If you use it a lot, eventually a windshirt is going to get damaged so I don't like to spend a lot on one and then get upset when it gets a hole. I try to keep my windshirt in nice condition, but I don't get bothered if it gets a hole like I would if my UL Down Inner gets a hole. Deflecting damage from my down layers is one of the primary purposes of my windshirt.

One windshirt that I like the MEC RD windshirt. It's not the lightest at 153g (5oz) but it's a bit more robust, it's cheaper ($78) and all the weight is in the material (ie. few features) so you get the most robust windshirt for the weight. Even still, I somehow put a nice cut in mine last month. The RD windshirt has also got a nice long cut unlike the Houdini.
http://www.mec.ca/AST/ShopMEC/MensClothing/WindwearSoftShells/Tops/PRD~5019-388/mec-rd-windshell-jacket-mens.jsp

depends

if yr moving and wearing the poofay for quick stops … put it over the windshell … no sense taking off the windshell, putting on the poofay and then putting back on the windshell … you lose heat doing that

in camp … simply put it under the windshell or the rain jacket …

i dont bother sizing my windshells any larger … with lightish down poofays, i find that a regular sized windshell fits fine … by the time you get to a bigger poofay where you need to size over in winter, the windshell gets large enough that it actually gets in the way of stuff like climbing and snowshoeing in the bushes … besides the same problem applies then, you dont want to be constantly taking off and putting back on yr windshell at stops in winter …

I have a few different sized windshirts to suit different layering systems and conditions. For active use, i like a good fit over a baselayer and a 100 weight fleece. For winter camp use, i sized up to go over loftier insulation. I also have a more durable windshirt for rock scrambling.

I think (similar to a lot of gear discussions here) that it depends on where you are hiking:

(A) In environments with a greater chance of rain: I'd size a wind-shirt for the daytime/active hiking, more "fitted" to go over ONLY a base layer and/or a mid-layer. This is because I'd also have a rain shell too that can go over a down piece.

(B) In dry/desert environments, maybe I'd size up so the wind-shirt could be the only shell needed and go over the insulation layer.

My current clothing system is a base s/s t-shirt (wool or poly), a mid-layer Ibex wool Hoodie, a Rab Cirrus windshirt (my standard size Med, fits over the previous layers), a UL Down Parka insulation layer and a Driducks jacket or a TNF Triumph Anorak rain shell, large enough to go over the insulation piece. John Abela (see http://www.redwoodoutdoors.com) has a good description of this layering system (though much lighter than mine!); he lives in a place with a lot of moisture (coastal Northern California) and I live in the PNW.

Edit: btw, EMS still has the Cirrus on sale for $69.98: http://www.ems.com/product/index.jsp?productId=4346034&clickid=body_rv_img

del

I did pick up a Rab Cirrus in XL plus another 25% off @ EMS with a coupon ($53). However, they run 1 size smaller than most other brands in XL and if I attempt to fit anything other than my Ibex Hoody base layer under it, I'll look like Chris Farley in Tommy Boy.

I don't think it stands a chance to fit over an UL down jacket. Thus my issue at hand here. Or an easier solution would be to lose 20-30 lbs to get down to 180 on my 5'-11" frame. :)

I appreciate the food for thought.

Dan

dan …

as long as yr rain jacket fits over everything … i wouldnt worry about it

on the move at quick stops you arent going to take off and put back on yr windshell every time .. the down poofay just goes over as said previously

and in camp … the rain jacket is what matters … itll protect yr poofay from the rain … an oversized windshell wont do that … a rain jacket will protect against wind loss just as good as well …. and yr carrying one anyways

a light insulating layer like MB Inner should fit relatively easy under most windshirts w/o sizing up (my Houdini does anyways), in the shoulder seasons/winter the insulating layer is getting thicker and it's easier just to layer over the windshirt

Re wearing a rainshell over a big down jacket to protect it from rain. If it was warm enough for rain, i wouldn't be carrying a big down jacket. I try to wear my rainshell only when it is actually raining. The DWR lasts longer that way.
I like an oversize windshirt in winter to protect the expensive down jacket at camp. I would rather a spark from the fire landed on my windshirt, or any spilled food. If i'm just taking a break, the down jacket goes over the windshirt.

the MB inner isnt exactly a big down poofay ;)

personally ive never found wearing the rain jacket around camp to wear out the DWR much quicker … usually its bushwhacking/climbing … or wearing it heavy rain where you need to wear it anyways … god made dryers and grangers for a reason