Can’t figure out this Capilene thing…

I just got back from a long walk in the rain wearing my REI polyester fleece "thaw" pants and my "10,000 feet above sealevel" fleece shirt.
After 3 miles i got to the laundromat.
I was wet but warm from the activity.
The pants are 10 years old and thread bare.
The shirt is a department store cheapy.
In ten minutes under the roof of the laundromat they both were dry. (from body heat alone.. I was washing work clothes)
The insulating factor between the "high end" and cheap stuff is the same.. it is dead air space.
I think the only difference is the quality of the stitchwork.
Capilene or wool, it's all about the air it traps and the fit of the garment.

It is confusing and there are many types of fleece out there, with varying density as well as loft. For example, Patagonia Synchilla has good loft, but needs a windproof layer to be practical. The confusion is compounded with proprietary branding like Techwick, making it hard to get a true apples and apples comparison. It would be interesting to see the wicking properties and wind resistance of fleece fabrics compared.

Your question is broad in scope– it depends on the conditions, your metabolism and level of activity, and the fabric properties. Ice climbing at 10,000 feet and -10F in 20MPH wind calls for something different than cross country skiing at 20F in calm air, and so on.

If you own the stuff and it is cold outside, load up a pack and take a few turns around the block trying different layers. You'll know soon enough!

Differences in material weave (think it's denier) between the EMS and Patagonia brands perhaps?

I remember reading where Capilene 4 was almost the same thickness and, therefore, similar to the performance of 100 wt fleece, if that helps. Cap 1 is pretty thin and that's what I use as a NTS layer almost exclusively. Got my blaze orange/navy blue Cap 3 zip today and the material is definitely thicker than my Cap 1 or 2 layers.

Nope.

The EMS shirt is not R1 (Polartec Powerdry), you would know if it was made up of this material, it has a distinct raised waffle pattern. The weight variance between your shirt and the Capilene specs is probably due to the cut of the garment, Capilene is very SLIM fitting and sewn to hug the body whereas the cut on the EMS Techlite looks pretty standard fitting in the photo.

"The insulating factor between the "high end" and cheap stuff is the same.. dead air space. I think the only difference is the quality of stitching."

I highly disagree with you here. For walking? Yes, maybe that is true, hiking is a relatively low exertion/non-technical activity. Introduce considerable moisture and the ability for a fabric to manage moisture and retain warmth is surely difficult. When the level of activity increases along with the duration, many cheap fabrics (***in my experience) cannot keep up with the amount of vapor and heat the human body is producing. If the material used in a garment is subpar and no thought was put into how the material is incorporated into the article of clothing, then you're left with a sodden synthetic mess. Go for a hard run in R1 when it's 20F outside, then go put on a Champion shirt from K-Mart and do the same…. it will be night and day in terms of performance difference. Polyester isn't just polyester, how companies use this material is what makes the difference…and there is a huge difference.

Good point on the cut. The Techwick is very generous. I wonder if the Patty stuff is so slim fit on my not so slim body (Husky these days?! :o), such that I can get a vapor barrier shirt under it.

what matters is the material … not the fancy name or $$$$ … some material is a bit more breathable than others … for example the powerdry used in the R1 is more breathable IMO than some 100-200 wt fleeces … however the difference between my $60 mec version and a patagucci version 2-3x the price is minimal

there are a lot of cheap fleeces that can be more "breathable" than more expensive versions … you can usually tell in the store

in the end though fleece really just is fleece … as long as the material (and weight) is the type you want …. the difference between brands is a jedi mind trick

for those who think that the price makes a difference … note that dead bird doesnt use powerdry … the "best brand" (well …) has the delta lt series of light fleeces that uses … you guessed it … 100 wt polartec classic instead for $$$$ …. ive used cheap 100 wt fleeces that performed just as well …

I don't think Patagonia makes enough of a performance differece to justify the massive increase in price. Sorry. I'd have to see it measured and quantified to believe it.

It's kinda amazing to me that anyone would argue otherwise.
The insulating factor of ANY fabric is the AIR not the material it is made from.
The structure of the fabric and fit of the finished garment effects how the air is trapped and breatheability but wheter it's a Patagonia hoody or a garbage bag makes no difference if they trap the same quantity of air, prevent convection, transfer moisture, ect.
Perhaps you have never been homeless Eugene but crumpled up newspapaers make as superb an insulation as fleece or down in such an event.
The major problem with newspaper is moisture management and keeping it close to your skin.

@ Joe: at a certain point we are just talking polyester but, IIRC it was the Complete Walker IV stating there's a difference among the chemical treatments used to enhance "wickiness" among apparel makers and now stink treatments; after trying a number of different baselayers from different clothing makers (iirc at least REI MTS, TNF Vaporwick, Wally world polypro, Duofold's-various, HH Polypro, Nike Drifit, Golites old wicky layer, Marmot Driclime, generic military wicky layers, and UA – both civilian and military in the last 10 years), Cap is best with my sweat and I'm pretty happy with it's performance, though not the price or abrasion resistance (I wear them out where the pack contacts the back, same with the loose denier Mountain Hardware WickedT series too). After much trial and error (Cap was the last base I tried due to price) …

Anyone hiking downwind of me would be happy with Cap's performance too!!

No, I haven't been homeless Matt, I've been fortunate to always have a roof over my head, of course that could always be pulled out from underneath us so I'm thankful everyday. I'll keep crumpled up newspapers and garbage bags in mind though.

You're right Matt, I misread, rather jumped at your comment without thinking it through and spilled words out of my mouth carelessly. Yes, trapped heat within the fabric and the skin, is the common insulating factor, I'm not arguing otherwise and agree entirely. My point was that Patagonia is just one example of a company who has a very good understanding of how certain materials do a better job of regulating heat and moisture and implement this knowledge into their selection of materials for a given article of clothing's intended purpose. Melanzana, MEC, REI, etc. etc. all utilize the same materials in many of their own articles of clothing, so yeah, brand or price matters little, check the specs on the material first. Hopefully that makes sense, if not, then it's the Bells Double Cream stout speaking, not me.

You're right Joe, the difference in performance isn't always justified, which is why I never pay full price for anything, especially the few Patagonia pieces that I own. It is GUARANTEED that their previous seasons gear will go for 40-60% off at some point in clearance, no reason to pay the steep prices if you can wait.

Bryce, sorry for hijacking.

Bryce, I'd assume your EMS shirt is akin to 100 weight fleece.

Capilene isn't super tight, just fitted. I'd order a Cap 2 shirt and see how you like. Buy from REI and you can return it.

The primary function of a base layer is not insulation. It is moisture management (which assists the function of insulation greatly). For me Cap 2 is the best at this. Period. It lasts a long time, and for the single most used and important piece of technical gear you own is worth paying full retail.

Well to my reading, Bryce was asking about mid layer insulation, not base layer moisture management:

"I plan on wearing a medium weight Polypros, and then a lightweight fleece… I'm trying to see if my old stuff is up to task, mainly that lightweight fleece portion."

He then mentioned Capilene items that are really fleece-ish mid layer insulators, not true next-to-skin pieces. He focused on warmth, not moisture management.

I have found wide variability in next-to-skin performance, from the spectrum of Patagucci to Champion (i.e. Target). Though I must say, the Champion stuff has done a pretty great job for 1/3 the price of Yvon Chouinard's misguided attempt at not being a member of the 1%.

For fleece insulation, my experience is that the cheap stuff is very comparable to the gucci items in terms of warmth, as long as you have a wind shell (which we all carry). The difference is usually in workmanship, cut, and tech features like wisely placed flat seams and deep chest zips. Contoured, technical cuts produce more wasted material and add to the price.

An option for budget minded folks is to take a fleece you got cheap and have it tailored locally. If it fits you a little too loose, a good tailor can make it snug up to your torso better for not much extra money.

I have a big chest and shoulders but a narrow(ish) waist and normal length arms. So the high end pieces that I buy (on sale!) in XL/XXL to fit my upper torso are often too baggy & too long in the sleeve. I've had a local tailor put darts in the lower back and shorten the sleeves with good results.

I would just got with Cap 2 and call it a day. Sure you can save a few bucks on another brand but how much are we talking about $10-20-30 bucks? After all we are talking base layers not $400-500 hard shell coats.

Be aware the Patagonia stuff is slim fit and if you have a gut it will look gross but so wont most base layers. On the other hand in New England in the winter i normally have at least a light wind jacket over my base so it is only really seen on the ride home..

I have been know to sport R1 and R2 just as casual wear year round as i like wearing long sleeve shirts. I have a bad running habit that keeps me in the sun quite a bit and i wanna stay healthy!!

In the end though i often wear a pair or two of ten year old Hot chillies or some old Hind tight things as a base on my legs when hiking and climbing in New England in the winter and they work just fine. On my upper body though i am picky as temp fluctuates so much..

But like i said if you don't have it and need it you cant go wrong with the Pat stuff. The Cap 2 stuff really works for me in the winter. It self regulates very very well hot or cold.

I currently rock this for 3 season, don't see why it wouldn't work year round as a base layer?
http://www.golite.com/Wildwood-Trail-Longsleeve-Run-Top-P711.aspx

My size large weighs 3.46oz after I cut out the back pocket (I guess trail runners like that pocket for carry a gel pack or keys?). That's lighter than Cap 1, so I'm willing to give it a shot.

I may try modding/tailoring my cheap 100-wt fleece to drop another ounce or two from it. I'm generally resigned to the fact that while hiking in the winter….I'm sweating/steaming up a storm in heavy snow and snowshoes. When I stop I'm fine for a few minutes as I shed heat and the clothes dry. When I setup camp, I'll let myself cool down to stop sweating, then I'll take off my shell and 100-wt fleece, and place a VB shirt over my base layer, then put back on the 100-wt fleece and shell. This allows me to dry out my 1oo-wt fleece as I continue to generate heat whiling doing camp duties, and NOT put more perspiration into my fleece. I don't think I'll rock the vapor barrier shirt while hiking for fear of pesky regulation. And I don't think I'd rock a VB liner in my bag because I can regulate as well, and I can't put on my extra clothing for added warmth if needed, else I'd saturate the insulation under the liner. That's my initial thoughts anyway. I have been reading up on VBLs and this is a good article on not only how they work, but how they work in practice:

http://home.comcast.net/~pinnah/DirtbagPinner/vb.txt

Synthetic base layers are a joy.

There are also a million different choices.

IMO, skip the Cap 3/4. Stick with Cap 2.

if yr sweating on the move … dont wear the fleece…

a mid-layer on the move has to provide BOTH insulation and the ability to breathe/move moisture- I've tried several different syn and wool flavors and thus far Powerdry has worked the best for me

cap 2 is not a mid-layer IMO, makes a fine base layer (as does Cap 1), but very little to no insulation value (of course that's not it's "job" :) )

the R1 stuff is pretty close to regular fit, I'm on the husky side as well (6' 190#) and a large fits just right over a base layer

seriously james? you think the CEO of target is not a "member of the 1%" c'mon man!

i'm pretty tired of this bagging on patagonia.
do you give 1% of your money to help conservation? do you make sure everything you buy comes from fair trade and ethical practices? After footprint analysis do you stop shopping at the local and convenient place? How would you propose an outdoor company market itself? would you prefer companies like champion say "we support child labor, below poverty wages, unfair hours, and global deforestation to offer your sub-par baselayer at 1/3 of the price" ?

Patagonia, and the like, may not be perfect. but if i was Yvon, and Patagonia was doing anything ethical and environmental you can bet your a*ss i'd publish and advertise that info.

easy

clothes at 1/3-1/2 the price of Y-word brands … that perform just as well

absolutely rock solid guarantee

solid business practices

1% back to the planet

support local initiatives and contributes locally

etc …

guess which company is ???

http://www.mec.ca/AST/Navigation/MEC_Global/Sustainability.jsp

they give 1% back without charging Y-prices …

1% For The Planet
In 2007, we joined 1% For The Planet, an alliance of businesses that believe in providing financial support to environmental initiatives. Since 1987, we've given in excess of $17 million to Canadian conservation projects through our grant programs. Now we're committed to donating a full 1% of our annual gross sales to Canadian causes.

As an independent third party, 1% For The Planet confirms that member businesses meet their donation commitments. 1% For The Planet also verifies that the groups receiving funds have clear, worthwhile goals directly related to the environment. These measures deepen our commitment to supporting conservation of wild places.

as a comparison … the mec R1 hoody equivalent is $63 canadian and MADE IN CANADA …. the patagucci version is $150 (around $120 on sale) and made in columbia

so i think its a better deal than buying a brand 2-3x the price that also gives 1% back ;)

though i suppose if you bought some patagucci at MEC youd be giving 2% back (or some other funny number) …

think of it this way … if mec can do it at less $$$$ and still have it made in canada (well this item at least) .. and still contribute 1% … why cant others … hmmm …

eric,

yeah that's cool. I'm not bagging on MEC.

just really tired of hearing this patagonia sucks cause (blah blah blah). everything I've gotten from patagonia has been great quality and has both performed well and lasted a long time. I've yet to wear something out, just lost it or gave it away first. i'm not saying pata is the best, i've sold a few items that didn't work for me and thats fine.

Just to be clear, I don't have a problem with jobs being overseas so much as fair labor etc. People in china, vietnam, columbia and nicaragua need jobs too. What I do have a problem with is unfair practices and environmentally destructive practices. If MEC is able to source locally and do provide fair labor and the like and provide cheaper prices, then that's great.

If "john doe" wants to fund his own demise at places like wal-mart to save 10%, then so be it, he will succeed……

Ben, I think you misread me. I said Yvon's MISGUIDED attempt to NOT be one of the 1%, therefore he IS one of the 1%.

I just get tired of Patagonia's preachiness. I appreciate and own plenty of their gear… that I bought used or at 60% off.

I recall the story of Y.C. freaking out about workers using silicone caulk on the windows of his oceanfront dream house (http://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-adventure/He-s-Not-Worthy.html?page=all) and insisting they use cotton thread and beeswax instead. As if everyone in the world can afford the sky-high labor costs of that kind of intricate craftsmanship.

Blah blah blah, whatever helps you sleep at night, dude.

So Pata is made in Colombia, to be fair, Columbia should be made in Patagonia

I just wanted to add some cheekyness… carry on…

Than the Patagonia R1 Hoody as a mid layer imop. TBH i only need it when ice climbing in New England or sitting around camp or doing chores. If i am constantly on the move "hiking" any fleece is just way overkill other than in the parking lot getting ready and then.5 miles up the trail. At his point i have to stop and shed layers so i have learnt to just start cold and move your ass!!

This year i am gonna try the Arctery Atom LT Hoody as my mid layer and leave the bulky fleece at home. So long as the hood will give the face coverage of the Patagonia R1 Hoody i will be a convert i am sure.

Cap 2 is the only base layer for me any time a a base layer is needed. The stuff never gets wet, It's almost like it dries its own sweat lol.. If i am cold it is not my base layer but my mid layer that i am gonna change. In most cases i just move faster and wear less.

Patagonia cap one is what i use as a T-shirt around town 6-7 days a week. I also run in Cap1. You can get all this stuff online on sale if you have the time to watch for it and buy off season and last seasons colors. Try Mountain Project.com as they have a feature that keeps track of online retailers sales.

Try the R1 Hoody and the Patagonia Nano Puff Hoody. FYI the Nano puff is not helmet compatible however the Arcteryx Atom Lt is!! Not that you need a helmet compatible hood for hiking though….

^ I'm not sure the Arcteryx atom lt hoody is helmet compatible… unless you have a really small head. (at least mine isn't. I wear it under my helmet).

Patagonia is a great company. If you don't like what they preach or sell… don't buy it.