Amount of loft in down jackets

If nothing else, you triggered a lot of ads from Gear Buyer about down jackets!

I don't know the exact scientific details, but my understanding is that the lower fill number contains less down and more feathers. This actually creates a little more loft, at least when the garment is relatively new, because it doesn't crush quite so easily. However, lower fill power down is less durable and eventually loses its loft sooner than the higher fill power down. Basically, as I understand it, it means you want higher fill down in your sleeping bag, so it lasts longer, while lower fill down in your jacket is warmer and heavier but doesn't last as long.

I hope someone has the exact scientific explanation for this!

Of course the lower grade down is cheaper and heavier. Remember that with insulation, it's "light, warm, cheap: pick two." We should probably add "longer-lasting" to the criteria and continue to pick two, except that "longer lasting" (with down) goes with "light." .

I don't think there's any snobbery involved unless you want it to be so; it's more a case of picking which features are more important to you.

Fill power is the number of cubic inches occupied by 1oz of down (uncompressed).
So 800 is very fine down, 600 is slightly coarser down. Of two products with identical loft, the one with 600 down will weigh more.

Stuart, the question isn't about the weight of the jackets or the definition of fill power. I fully understand that 800 fill is higher lofting per ounce– my problem is with the claims that the approximately 1.5-2 inches of loft in the 800 fill jackets is as warm as the 3-4 inches of loft in the 600 fill jackets. If they fill the jackets to the same 3-4 inches of loft and only change the fill from 600 to 800, the 800 will still be lighter and more compressible, just a lot more expensive. And the weight difference would probably not be as drastic as the 33% reduction (EMS 19 vs 13 oz).

Ryan,

I think you are on to something here. For usually half the cost you can get a 600-650 fill down jacket that is actually warmer then its more expensive brethren. When I was at the LLBean store in North Conway I was looking at exactly this. Not only do the 600's look puffier but they feel like they a have alot more down in them and when holding them up to the light there is a big difference in the amount of light that comes through.

Also because of the higher amount of feathers in it, some have theorized that in real world conditions, i.e. humidity it does not loose its loft nearly as much as the higher fill power stuff.

I guess we just need to learn to expect a lighter and less warmer garment when purchasing higher fill power unless the fill amount is spec at a certain number of ounces and can be trusted.

I would like to see a state of the market report on down jackets where they open up and measure oz of down actual to oz listed. Including some of the 600-650 fill jackets for comparison. For the number of people purchasing down jacket it would be worth it to tear open a few. Maybe this has been done to some extent by BPL?

I do think marketing departments get carried away with higherend products to justify the price they overstate the value.

– is not a very "accurate" determinant of "warmth" … amount of down and fill power is better according to richard … if money, humidity and durability was no object i would take a jacket with a higher amount of higher fill down any day

– high fill power jackets will likely not be as high fill power in more humid conditions … i can tell you that my 900 fill MB EXL on a wet cold day does not insulate much better than one of my synth jackets even when out of the rain …. humidity

– for the best value you can get 650-700 fill jackets that will work very well in real world conditions (humidity of 70%+) for very cheap … personally i think for newer people this is the way to go as you can always use the jackets for other things and start off with a minimal investment

– marketing departments will make up anything in order to sell you more jackets .. my favorite is the new canada goose 800 fill softshell hybrid jacket that is supposedly meant for "active" use … or how about a certain "reputable" bag manufacturer that rates bags according to their survival rating … etc …

personally i like to think that BPL is a place where people can see through the myths perpetrated by the outdoor industry about you and your hard earned money … the economy aint doint the best and many people are on hard times, its a disservice IMO to imply (through marketing, outdoor media, blind brand loyalty) that you need $$$$ to go out an have fun …

if you think about the money you would have spent on a costco $30 down jacket, champion underwear at target, cheap nylon track suit pants, a stoic vaporshell rain jacket (when they had em for $90) and a cheap fleece …. add a windshell from department of goods … you could have your entire clothing system for less than the cost of one of the usual 800+ fill down jackets people usually recommend here … and i hazard to say it would work almost as well as a $$$$ one for all practial purposes

"i can tell you that my 900 fill MB EXL on a wet cold day does not insulate much better than one of my synth jackets"

Part of that fits into my point– the EX Light has 1.8 ounces of down fill (according to montbell's website). I have an Alpine Light, which has 4.0 ounces, and is nice and warm even in more humid conditions in my experience. Probably less warm than in dry conditions, but that's also because humidity makes either temperature extreme more uncomfortable. Either way, I can look at the Ex Light and the Alpine Light and determine relatively how warm they are by seeing how many ounces of fill they each have. Montbell doesn't claim that they are both equally warm.

Clint– I like that idea… tearing open the jackets to see how much down is in there. Expensive experiment, though :)

Eric– Speaking of money, maybe part of why I'm annoyed is because I can't make objective comparisons between the cheaper jackets and the more expensive montbell/WM ones because the amount of fill isn't listed (although they do have it for their sleeping bags). EMS has been doing good things recently with lighter shell fabrics and high quality down, but I'm just annoyed that there's not enough spec info for their jackets.

Do what i do. Refuse to buy anything unless you know what you are getting for your cash.
Although i live in the UK, i've never bought any PHD down gear because they don't list fill weights. They won't even tell you if you email them.
Maybe if everyone did this, manufacturers might be more open.

Yep. That's exactly what I do. Maybe someday they'll list them and I'll see how comparable they are to MB, WM, etc.

honestly … i dont worry about it too much if the jacket is cheap … i didnt know how much 800 fill down was in my $50 EB downlight vest when i bought it … and im not quite sure how much is in there now

if i was spending $$$$ i suppose id want to know …. but really all i need to know is will it be warm enough … and i can usually make a good guess if i can see and feel the jacket in person

you need to ask yourself how much $$$$ extra is it worth to know every little detail … ill bet that those people who bought the $30 costco jackets arent too concerned for that price

not to mention that you could probably ask the retailer and find out … the MEC reflex probably has one of the best down to price ratios of any big puffy … and mec doesnt state the amount of down, but someone asked and its supposed to be ~14 oz of 800 fill … same amount of down for half the price of one of those fancy UL brand name

What if you ask (as i said), and they won't tell?
For a $50 deal, so what. But what if you are spending big bucks?

why would you spend $$$$$ then ;)

even EB and MEC will tell you if you ask … i wonder what makes some of these fancy brand names so special that they feel you shouldnt need to know how much down is in their product

i stupidly bought a westcomb kokanee at a factory sale in a prior life, latter they refuse to tell me how much down is in there … when i asked the person he said "well then youll just go and compare it to the MEC stuff and we dont want that" … i wish i had just bought a mec reflex then

i personally think that some of these $$$$ brands (and i do like westcomb) realize that there is nothing special about their $$$$ jackets beyond the amount and fill power of the down they are using … and maybe the shell material if you cared about that … they dont want consumers running off making informed decisions and comparing the amount and power of the fill … because then the $$$$ you pay for the "brand premium" will be very evident

jedi mindtricks are what sells … when you believe something is the "best"

"why would you spend $$$$$ then ;)"

Because in the past, i've bought cheap, and bought twice.

in the past ive bought expensive and bought (or exchanged) thrice ;)

Not a good judge of quality then? Maybe you'll get better with experience.

Yeah, as I said– if I don't know what's in it, I won't buy it. But I wish they had the info readily available. Asked EMS and they didn't know. Maybe I asked the wrong person.

As for that MEC jacket, if they said there was 14 oz of down in that jacket, can that be right? WM and MB's puffiest jackets have 6.5 and 9 ounces of down, and the most down I could find in a Rab jacket is 10 ounces for a jacket that weighs about the same as the Reflex (Neutrino Plus). The Reflex does look like a swanky jacket, though. And you're right about it looking like a good deal.

or maybe all this "quality" is overhyped … my "cheaper" gear seems to last longer than my more expensive stuff …

not to mention that if you buy some brands or from some retailers …. a bear can use it as a chew toy and theyll still take care of you

my 8$ mec shirts are going stonger and longer than my patagucci or dead birds ;)

edit …

ryan … i believe richard tested it and said it was more or less good to spec, cant remember what the exact size or amount of down he calculated … the thread is on BPL somewhere … but its a darn good deal with the MEC feed it to a polar bear warranty ….

I used to wear a 'bear skin' professionaly on ceremonial duties. It was an uncomfortable heavy b*****d, but it would probably live for ever.
I wouldn'y carry or wear it for fun.

My local EMS has their glacier down jacket on sale for $40.

Customer service says it has 9oz of 650 fill down and weighs 19oz.

9oz x 650/800 = 7.25 oZ of 800fp down. Is this conversion correct?

If so for an extra 3oz larger pack size and a lot less money it should be roughly comparable to the Discontinued montbell alpine, although it is fully baffled.

Can anyone confirm/deny this?

We all know that the higher the down fill number the more compressable the garment. This is great for storing it in your pack but not so great when wearing it.

Your movement, gear worn over the garment and wind pressure all conspire to reduce loft. BUT… loft in a 600 fill jacket will resist this compression better than that from a 850 fill jacket.

So, perhaps garment fill need not always be the highest fill number (eider down being the exception for different reasons, such as its tendency to adhere to itself). But if you can afford Russian eider down you likely won't be reading this and your manservant will do your shopping for you.