Custom Zpacks Zero – Finally Got the Perfect SUL Pack

[Matt Summa]

Just got my Zero in a medium a few weeks ago. I agree, I have finally found the perfect pack for my needs. I just used it on a 3 day, 20 mile trip with my boys on the AT last weekend and I was amazed at how the pack handled my gear load. I put my zrest, folded with two exposed rectangles, in the pack as my back pad and it really worked great. Very comfortable with still a ton of room inside. The medium really is a huge pack and is able to fit my 4 season gear perfectly.

The only thing I would change after using the pack this weekend it the way the roll top/ dry sack closure buckles at the top. I would like the top to roll down and clip the edges to a point on the side of the pack, like the ULA packs are. It would increase compression from the top of the pack, and just look make the pack look way cooler. Maybe ill do this modification myself…

[Henk Smees]

Hi Matt,

>” The only thing I would change after using the pack this weekend it the way the roll top / dry sack closure buckles at the top. I would like the top to roll down and clip the edges to a point on the side of the pack, like the ULA packs are. It would increase compression from the top of the pack and just look make the pack look way cooler.”<

This is the second time I here somebody complaining about the roll top closure (OP did as well). I don’t really understand what the problem is. Bringing the ends down will increase weight (2 buckles required) and you also need some straps to maintain versatility – ability of having different inside volumes.

I made my own dry bags with Cuben (CT2K.08), used the *normal* closure and haven’t found any problem to close same. After the required minimum of 3 folds, you DO NOT want to bring both ends up and close the buckle, because this will indeed turn the closure in something like a *ring* (perfectly shown on one of the pictures Dan posted on 10/27/11). So what do you want to do? Just make another half fold and then close the buckle against the fabric of the dry bag, as shown in the next pictures.

Detail:

Strapped to my home-made TFD external frame pack:

Dan said: >“One last nice touch that really impressed me is the tabs to open the velcro roll top.”< Well, buckling the roll top closure the way I just described makes the whole Velcro hook-and-loop tape unnecessary … less weight again :). At least I have never missed them [and I’m using the smallest Polyamide webbing I could find (10mm)].

[Nick Gatel]

The point of this pack, IMO, is simplicity. The draw cord closure is really, really cool. Remember, it is just a stuff sack with a couple of straps. Adding much more defeats the purpose. I did add two water bottle pockets and a pad holder. No matter what you do, the pack is going to hang off you shoulders. It is minimalist at best and that is why Joe built it.

[Dan @ Durston Gear]

I normally quite like drawcord closures. The reason I sometimes prefer a roll top is if the pack is made from a waterproof material (ie. I'm not using a pack cover/liner) and then having the roll top makes it that much more waterproof.

However, in the case of Zpacks their normal drawcord closure is kinda weird and hard to use IMO. It's not a simple drawcord with a cordlock. There is no cordlock where the cordage exits the top hem of the bag, rather you just pull out as much cord as you can and then there's a cordlock way at the bottom end of the cordage which you secure to a loop down at the bottom of the pack. Perhaps this picture explains it better than I can:

The problems I have with this closure design are:

1) If you have a rear/center pocket, then it's blocked by the cord so you need to undo the main pack opening just to grab your rain hat from the back pocket.
2) It's more time consuming/fiddly to use than a simple drawcord closure since you need to work the cordlock through the loop at the bottom and secure it.

I understand the benefit of this system, in that it pulls the unused top of the pack down to sorta act as a compression system without requiring a strap over the top like most drawcord packs have. I just don't really find it that simple/easy to use. A roll top closure offers a more effective means of compressing the pack, while also being at least as quick to use and without obstructing the rear pocket.

HENK:
Normally when I experience the roll top loop closure sticking up like in my Oct. 27th photos, it's when the pack isn't full enough to really get the top rolled tight. I'll experiment with the technique you've mentioned and see if that works better. With my Zero, I can't roll it way down because I don't want to roll up the rear center pocket, so if my load is quite small then the pack will be a little too large and I can't get any tension in the roll top area, which makes it want to stick up in my use so far. I will try your technique and see if it's different from what I was doing. It's hard to really understand what you're saying without a roll top in front of me to experiment with. If I can get the roll top loop to consistently lay down then that would be awesome. Having it poking up worries me a bit for off-trail use because it seems vulnerable to constantly getting branches poking through there.

[Henk Smees]

Hi Nick,

I don’t know whether your post is addressed to me or to the others who *complained* about the roll top closure. In no way I’m implying I don’t like Joe’s packs. I think they’re great [whichever closure is used (draw cord or roll top)]. It’s just that I noticed that both Dan (the OP) and Matt (yesterday) are considering the idea of changing that part of the pack. And it looks like they don’t dislike the roll top closure because they don’t want to get rid of same (they just want to alter it). Dan: >“I think what I'm going to do is steal the idea MLD had for their 3.7 pack. MLD basically uses a clip and a short bit of shock cord tied to the top of the rear pocket, so you can clip this to the roll top and hold the loop down”< Matt writes (after explaining he wants to do something like the ULA packs): >“Maybe I’ll do this modification myself….”<.

I only wanted to contribute with my *solution*, since there is no need for their roll tops to be altered to avoid the “tendency to stick up when the pack is rolled down to about shoulder level” (Dan’s words).

I apologize if my words (or the title) made you think I didn’t like the draw cord closure of Joe’s packs.

[Dan @ Durston Gear]

I forgot to update this thread and mention that my pack weighs in a 5.17oz.

[Nick Gatel]

Dan,

I really look at packs from the stand point of how easy they are for me to live out of. What I like, others may not. I already have 6 trips with the Zero, and the simplicity of the closure works well for me… and for others it may not. It has become a quick flick for me to close or open the closure, I have done it so many times it is a habit. Actually on a trip last week, Craig Wisner was pretty impressed with how it functioned as he watched me open and close it several times. But then what works for me, may work for others. With a front pocket, it would be problematic. But I look at this as a minimalist solution. I was hesitant to add the water pockets and pad holder, but they worked well for how I hike. I am not interested in a front pocket. If I have a wet shelter, I will put it in one of the side pockets and the other water bottle in the main pack… I can drink out of one bottle at a time :)

I agree with your earlier post about a sternum strap, especially since the cuben seems somewhat slippery. My solution was a minibiner, cord and a cord lock. Works great, and very light. When I have time I am going to put together something even lighter. My size small weighs 3.99 ounces.

To me, making any other changes defeats the purpose of simplicity. Again, that is for me, and what works for me may not work for others. I used own an Ohm and a Circuit and just hated them… a true minority of probably one. There was nothing wrong with the construction, quality, or service from ULA. I just couldn't get down a rhythm of simple living with those packs.

When I hike I don't want to think about my pack. And unless I am carrying a bunch of water, I don't think about the Zero when the weight is under 10 lbs, I just walk and day dream.

Yesterday I posted a thread on an XUL trip, and there are more comments and pictures regarding the Zero.

[W I S N E R !]

Generally, I'm not too impressed with gear; I sort of have the mentality that a pack is a pack, none are perfect, so just use what you've got that you're already used to…

But I have to say, after last weekend's trip with Nick, I'm impressed with all the Z Packs gear. His Zero looked to be the perfect pack of it's size. I'm already considering one with the same features as Nick's, namely, the addition of the two side pockets for water bottles. Outside of that, as Nick said above, I think additional mods would defeat the purpose of the UL/SUL pack..sort of like when I see a beautifully simple pack like a GoLite Ion with the addition of all sorts of pockets, mesh panels, etc…But to each their own. The Zero's closure looked really simple, the flaps to secure your pad as a back panel were smartly designed, and I especially liked the way the shoulder straps are sewn to the body.

[Henk Smees]

Hi Dan,

Closing the roll top *my* way is easier to do than to describe with words but I’ll try :). Have a look at the first picture [and imagine you have the bag (pack) in front of you]. I suppose that, after you’ve rolled the closure three times (or more), you’d bring both ends up and just fasten the buckle (which forms the loop you don’t like). Well that’s exactly what you do NOT want to do.

Pay attention to how the closure is rolled; you want to roll AWAY FROM YOU (this leaves the aspect as seen on the picture) and, after the three rolls, instead of bringing the ends up, you want to take these down (towards the sides). The only things left to do is moving both buckles towards you and fasten them as seen in the pic. [If you’re habituated to roll towards you, then you want to fasten the buckles away from you.]

It’s very simple (although describing with words is not so easy) and I’m sure you’ll get the clue when you’re at it. Now having said so…… I never have an almost empty pack. I use two 20L Dry bags, one for my sleeping bag (and some other items) and the other is for my camp (puffy) clothing and some other miscellaneous stuff, so in both bags I have high loft items (food goes in an Ursack). I also don’t have any pockets that can get in the way when rolling so, if needed, I could roll 10 times. I have no doubt these two reasons (high loft items and unlimited rolling) help in keeping my roll top closures under pressure. Nevertheless, I don’t think it’s necessary to have a completely filled pack to avoid the loop sticking up if you fasten the buckles as I just explained. The very nature of same will make it impossible.

[Dan @ Durston Gear]

HENK: I just played around for a bit and your technique seems to work well. Thanks for this.

NICK,
I'm sure you're right that Zpacks drawcord enclosure works well. My first Zero had one, but I never really used that Zero before selling it because I wanted to buy another with several changes (no hipbelt, add sternum strap, slightly bigger). I opted for the roll top on my second Zero mostly because of the way the drawcord interfered with using the front pocket, and secondly for waterproofing reasons.

It's true that the ideal pack or even the most 'simple to live out of' pack depends personal preference, habits and techniques. Over the past 3 years of addicted hiking, I've really gotten into strong organizational habits, so to me 'simple' is having a basic set of pack features that aligns with my habits so I can naturally reach for everything. I've always got my water bottle in the right side pocket, my alcohol bottle in the left side pocket and then my snacks/lunch go in the center pocket along with any clothing layers I'm shuffling between, so I almost never open the main bag while hiking. It works well for me, but I'm sure I could adjust my style and ditch the center pocket if I wanted. I do like having some clothing layers in the center pocket though, so I can adjust my layering without even stopping walking. Usually this just consists of putting my wind jacket (or rain jacket) on and off as needed.

I'll check out your trip report.

[Henk Smees]

Hi Dan,

I knew you'd have no problems figuring out how to do it. It's soooo easy.

I really think this is a better solution than how it’s done on some of the ULA packs like Katalyst, Airx & Circuit (and, once again, I’m not implying these are not great packs, although I wouldn’t buy these because I think they’re far too heavy). The reason I think *my* solution is better: as I said before, there won’t be any added weight (extra buckle and straps) and the emplacement of the bottom (side) buckles will not interfere with rolling the closure when the pack is at minimal load (or these buckles would have to be nearly at the bottom of the pack and therefore the straps need to be much longer).

Just thought I would jump in on this thread.

For the better part of the 2011 hiking season I have been using a ZPacks Zero.

My configuration is Cuben Fiber (1.26 sqyd) X-Small, Sternum Strap, Cuben Fiber Shoulder Pouch.

I have over 300 miles on this backpack.

I use it for my shoulder season setup (3.9 pounds / 1790 grams) and my summer time setup (1.15 pounds / 686 grams) and have tried to get it useable for my winter setup but I was not able to fit more than two days worth of food into it due it it being a x-small.

The max load weight it has had was 18 pounds. That was painful until the food went down a couple of days, of which I can just squeeze four days worth of food into it for shoulder season and six days of food with the summer time setup.

The 1.26 sqyd cuben fiber has held up very well. I custom ordered it with that lighter weight material.

I have zero external pockets on the back itself as they are unnecessary with my setup.

For my 2012 hiking season I will be using a new ZPacks Zero custom ordered with this setup: 0.74 CF, zero pockets, sized small, with custom made multipack. My goal will be to have a backpack that will hold more food so I have to stop less often in towns. Going from the x-small to the small should give me an additional two days worth of food storage. I will be ditching the sternum strap as I have switched over to using a custom ordered lighter weight zpacks multipack which gives me the same features as a sternum strap but also gives me an additional bit of storage space. It should end up weighing less than my present setup due to the lighter weight material. I myself question the durability of a backpack using 0.74 but it falls in line with my testing of a 0.34 cuben fiber tarp for durability. Highly recommend against 0.34 for tarp and I suspect I will be saying the same for a 0.74 cf backpack after a few hundred miles, but it is what I do so might as well give it a try.

[Dan @ Durston Gear]

Nice to see you're getting out pushing the limits and guinea pigging stuff for us.

Did I read that correct that you have a 1.15 lbs summer base weight? That's wild.

Did I read that correct that you have a 1.15 lbs summer base weight? That's wild.

Sorry it looks like I made a typo. 686 grams = 1.514 pounds and not 1.15 pounds.

Trust me when I say there is very little that is fun about a sub 700 gram setup. The further you go the harder it becomes – both physically and mentally – as you are pushing the safety net just a little too much I feel. Maybe if I lived down in the warmer climates it would be easier.

My gear list is at my website (link at the top left) but I encourage folks to ignore the summer setup and focus on the shoulder season setup, it is a bit more inline with what a person realistically should have for a multi-day hike.

[Dustin Short]

Jon, Come to AZ!

I XUL bivy bag at 3-4 oz would be more than warm enough for the summer months here in the desert. If you want to push the barriers you could pretty much just have a pack used for carrying water and food. You could realistically get under 1 lb ;)

It is an impressive list you have and commitment for going bare minimum when feasible.

Even your 3 season list is impressive and more what I envision for longer trips for my 2012 kit, just to increase the margin of error/safety. A great primer of what is possible.

This Zero is really starting to pique my interests, we'll see what the MYOG bug does to me over the winter ;)

[Michael Fleming]

The Cuben fiber material is pretty sweet but eventually my Zero pack with 1.5oz cuben fiber started to wear down on the bottom of it.. nothing horrible but there are a few holes.. the rest of the pack is perfect though! If I was to get another cuben pack I would get a stronger material for the rim and bottom, which may add an ounce or two but would increase the life-span of the pack a whole lot.

Of course the more you baby it, the longer it will last.

Dustin: Come to AZ!

I XUL bivy bag at 3-4 oz would be more than warm enough for the summer months here in the desert. If you want to push the barriers you could pretty much just have a pack used for carrying water and food. You could realistically get under 1 lb ;)

It is an impressive list you have and commitment for going bare minimum when feasible.

Even your 3 season list is impressive and more what I envision for longer trips for my 2012 kit, just to increase the margin of error/safety. A great primer of what is possible.

This Zero is really starting to pique my interests, we'll see what the MYOG bug does to me over the winter

Hey Dustin,

Totally hear what you are saying!! I very much want to move out of the Redwoods and back to the desert where I grew up so I can get out of this wet weather environment and reduce my gear list!!

It will be my goal for 2012 to do a three day sub-1-pound BPW hike. I know I can do it I just have to find the right location to make it happen. Of course that is really pushing the extreme so I will want to make sure that I have another hiker with me on that trip as a means of medical support should something go wrong. The greatest threat of XUL hiking is hurting yourself and not having the gear needed to make it back to safety – be it needle and thread or a jacket to fight off going into shock or water/flame to sterilize tools needed to patch yourself up. So very much want to have a hiking buddy with me on any sub 1 pound trip.

To be honest though, as you pointed out, the three season setup is really where the importance is at. To me XUL is very little more than pushing the extremes to learn a small handful of skills which could (but hopefully never will) benefit you as a SUL hiker. For that very reason the most important of the gear lists I have is my three season gear list. It is the setup that provides the best long distance hiking abilities, the greatest amount of reasonable comfort and safety gear (clothing) and so forth. My primary goal for 2012 I think will be seeing how many miles I can get onto a 3-4 pound setup. Somewhere in that range is my 'happy spot' for gear.

I just wrote a new article over at hikelighter.com that examines some SUL/XUL enclosed shelter setups. I mention this because in my three season setup I indicate I use a bivy and after my last hike of 2011 back in October I sold all of my bivys. Going to go in another direction with them so I put together a sweet spreadsheet to figure out which route I wanted to go next. I would love some feedback on the article and shelter comparison I put together!

[USA Duane Hall]

You guys are killing me with your low volume, light gear. Trying to spend my 11% bonus are ya? I'm resisting, but its hard to hold out.

Duane

[Nick Gatel]

Just 10% of your bonus.

[Warren Greer]

What are bonus' for? After all, they are a bonus.

[USA Duane Hall]

We met and exceeded our goals in my department by quite a bit, so instead of a 6% bonus, we qualified for only 11% this year. I wish I received a multi-million $$$ bonus, I could get what I wanted and help buy down prices for others.:) Last year it was a 12% bonus, spent that on old camping and bping stoves, gotta save this for a newer pickup. And new shoes, scheduled maintenance on the Civic, etc.

Duane

[michael levi]

These packs especialy the Zeros are actually about or the same or even cheaper than a mumur hyperlight or something, not to mention they weigh 2x as less.

I realyyyy am considering getting a medium zero, is there ANY pictures of this on someones back floating around on the web?

[Angelo R.]

Shoot Joe at ZPacks an email, I am sure he can hook you up with a photo or two.

[Steve Scarborough]

This is a very helpful thread for me. I am a volunteer in mountain search and rescue. For me, at age 65, being light is important. My days of 45+ lb. packs are over!

The Zpacks solution is very appealing to me. Right now, I have a super minimum hasty pack solution that uses just a Ribz front pack with the very basic SAR essentials that include GPS, radio, extra batteries, compass, signal mirror, whistle, GoLite poncho tarp, small FAK, trail marking tape, and other items. For water, I use small nylon water holders on my belt. I have a next level that also uses the Ribz, but adds a fanny pack with holders for 2x 32 oz. water bottles. This option allows me to add more essentials. (By the way, I really like the Ribz front pack….)

But, the Zpacks looks like it could work for me as an intermediate solution — between the Ribz+fanny and my ULA CDT. I consider the ULA CDT to be useful up to 25 lbs. After that I have an older Gregory internal frame pack that can handle up to about 45 lbs.

I thank all of you that have posted here with these most intelligent and useful comments. I may just have to spring for a Zpacks Zero.

Blessings,

Steve

[michael levi]

So I ordered a small hybrid with a roll top, right now I have two pads. A synmat ul7 and a short ridgerest. I am wondering if getting the top strap would be a good idea. I kind of want the pack to be minimal but a top strap might be convenient.

My question to Dan is, do you find that you wish you could compress the contents in the top of the pack better? Hence with a top strap.

Also taking my ridgerest is kind of a last resort now that I have this new pad.

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