Questions regarding all layers of clothing

Derek,

Check out the Gear Lists Forum section, there you will find the detailed kits many of the members here use for typical 3-season use.

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/display_forum?forum=37

Also, check the Articles -> Gear Lists section of the BPL content. The staff have written many articles about their trips with detailed gear lists for each trip.

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/xdpy/ss/Gear%20Lists/

Hope that helps!

Answering your question about needing an insulating layer underneath your rainshell: You would definitely get cold on the PCT without something warm. I used a synthetic jacket in camp daily until northern CA and then sent it home. I was fine until the last two weeks in WA when it rained non-stop and I was ready to murder somebody for a fleece. The system I use now is long sleeve hiking shirt, windshirt (I don't truly need it with my Rainshield jacket, but I just really like it), down jacket and Rainshield jacket. I've occasionally added a silk thermal (weighs like 4 oz) when it's colder. The most I have ever worn while hiking is my hiking shirt, silk thermal, windshirt and rainjacket (it was in the single digits).
On the bottom I have long pants (too many nervous breakdowns from bugs through the Sierras), tights and rainpants. The most I have ever worn while hiking is my hiking pants and rainpants.
I met many people on the PCT who carried the bare minimum (read: only a tyvek ground cloth for a shelter, trash bags for shelter, etc) and had to rely on more prepared people (read: those with a shelter). Sure, their packs were ridiculously light, but what was in their packs was also ridiculous. After freezing my ass off in the past, I now gladly carry an extra 1/2 pound to get me through the worst of weather.

Derek-There is no one best solution for each layer. Select what fits you well, what matches your budget, and is aesthetically pleasing to you. Simple concepts to guide you in their selections are as follows:

If you are trying to stay warm, wear a base layer garment that wicks the moisture away from your skin (polypropylene, wool, and polyester are all good options. If you don't wash your clothes every few days, select synthetic garments with silver in them or wool to eliminate odor. If you want to stay cool, wear a light colored garment to minimize the absorption of solar energy. Moisture on your skin will feel uncomfortable but, it is best to leave it there for cooling. Wear a loosely fitting base layer to facilitate the evaporation of the sweat.

The insulation you need is inversely proportional to your metabolic rate. For sleeping, your metabolic rate is ~.8, for camp chores ~2.5, and for backpacking ~8. As a general rule thickness determines the relative warmth and you need more thickness the lower your metabolic rate. As a general guideline, ~ .6" is adequate for 3 season camp chores and ~2” is adequate in your sleeping bag (~20F rating). For any given temperature you will need about 1/10 the insulation thickness hiking that you need sleeping, and about 1/3 that amount of insulation thickness while doing camp chores. Wear dark colors for you insulation layer to maximize solar heat absorption.

A breathable wind shirt over a base layer is all that is needed for most hiking insulation situations. A light wind shirt will provide about .5 clo (equivalent to 1/8” of high loft insulation) by virtue of the still air trapped between it and your body. It will also prevent the wind from blowing this still air away.

For camp chores or rests while hiking, high loft insulation is the most efficient weight-wise to keep you warm. In rank order of weight for warmth efficiency your best options are down, Primaloft One, Polarguard Delta, or fleece.

Select an outer layer to protect you from rain (no insulation should be part of it). If you are backpacking with a poncho tarp, then a highly water resistant wind shirt can be used to augment the poncho tarp for rain protection. If you are not using a poncho, then your options in order of desirability are WPB fabrics such as Propore (fragile but cheap), eVENT, Gore-Tex, EPIC, or proprietary polyurethane. Wear you wind shirt over your insulation and under your WPB outer layer to maximize warmth.

For sleeping, use your high loft insulation to augment your sleeping bag loft so a lighter bag can be taken.

Richard; outstanding. That post covers all the key points a beginner would need to know. while still being clear and succinct. I wish I could have read that one year ago.

Derek, if I could go back 12 months and return all my bad clothing choices, here is what I would buy.. this is one simple solution; there are economical alternatives to each of these options; just ask..

Base layer: top, bottom, socks:
– Capilene 1 (Patagonia) or,
– merino wool (Smartwool, Ibex, Montbell,etc..)

– pants (REI Summit) but you mentioned shorts..

Insulation:
– Wool watch cap
– Polyester knit gloves
– Fleece vest or jacket and
– Synthetic vest or jacket (MontBell Thermawrap, Patagonia micro-puff, etc..)
– Wool hiking socks

Wind layer:
– wind shirt (Marmot Ion)
– wind pants (Montbell)

Rain/shell layer:
$$$ Budget:
Integral Designs eVENT Thru-hiker jacket and rain pants.
$$ Budget:
The North Face DIAD and Columbia Goretex pants
$ Budget:
Redledge Thunderlight jacket and full zip pants

Footwear:
Mesh trail runners for 3 season(inov-8 330s)
Goretex hiking boots for very rough terrain (Montrail Kenai GTX)

That's it, just 14 clothing items (choosing one type of shoe). You could eliminate the wind layer and use the rain/shell layer if you don't anticipate prolonged rain.

Hope this helps.

Thanks a lot. Those posts were very informative and helped me out a lot. I understand everything now except the wind shell and rain shell. Do I need a wind resistant jacket and then a waterproof outter shell on top of it, or is there any jackets that function as both, allowing me to only need 3 layers instead of 4?

Derek,

I think you'll appreciate the additional flexibility that a windshirt provides and at around 2.5 – 3.5 ounces, it's really not much of a weight penalty. Check out the many windshirt reviews on this site to help you decide before parting with any green backs.

Cheers,
Sheldon

An alternative to heavier separate rain jackets is to use a dropstoppers jacket under your windshirt. That jacket is cheap and sold on BPL. You can wear it over a windshirt in open territory or under it if there is brush. It is fragile but oh so cheap.

>Do I need a wind resistant jacket and then a waterproof outter shell on top of it, or is there any jackets that function as both

The existence of a jacket that functions as both has been cussed and discussed in detail on BPL. So far there doesn't seem to be one jacket that is both highly breathable (so it doesn't wet on the inside) and highly waterproof (so the wet doesn't come inside after extended exposure to rain). Thus, the best solution so far seems to be to have two separate jackets, one that is extremely breathable and lightweight (about 3 oz) so you can stay dry while working hard in wind or cold without rain, and another (jacket, poncho or cape) to keep heavy rain off. You can carry only 3 layers by discarding the highly-breathable wind-resistant jacket, but you will probably find it a bit damp wearing a rain jacket when it isn't raining. I find the 3 oz for a windshirt is worthwhile.

Just to echo what the three previous posters have said, a lightweight wind shirt is well worth carrying. My Montane Aero has quickly become my favorite piece of clothing.

Richard Nisley's answer is as compact as I can imagine while still effectively answering your initial question. I have a much longer answer on my clothing page: http://www.verber.com/mark/outdoors/gear/clothing.html which includes links to a variety of specific products and my personal experiences trying a number of items.

To answer your questions about taking a fourth layer (windshirt)… I will agree with the other posters: there is no jacket made today which is sufficiently breathable and waterproof to be used in all conditions. A light weight windshirt is well worth the extra few ounces and the complexities of dealing with a fourth layer.

–Mark

The only thing I can added to the previous excellent posts, is that I also think of my windshirt as my bug layer. I use a hooded windshirt that keeps the bugs out while not becoming a sweat suit. In the majority of the situations I encounter my windshirt is all I need for weather protection. My rain layer usually stays in my pack.