Male bayonet Butane canisters: why so much cheaper

[al b]

"There are some very light remote canister stoves made by members here"

How difficult is that for non-metal workers?

105g is impressive, less than my can top stove

It would be nice if such things were commercially available…
how could manufacturers be persuaded?

[Roger Caffin]

Hi Stuart

> Benzomatic
Just checking: some of that brand are not a butane/propane mix but something else – and are hotter than LPG. Do Benzomatic make butane/propane mixes as well?

Cheers

[Roger Caffin]

Hi Alan

> It would be nice if such things were commercially available…
> how could manufacturers be persuaded?
True, but … Companies have egos, and NIH reigns.
But we are working on it (as many readers know). Stay tuned.

Cheers

[Hikin’ Jim]

Roger:

Bernzomatic makes a variety of cylinders of gas including MAPP (not the original MAPP, but a substitute), propane, oxygen, butane etc. Not all Bernzomatic products are available in every location. The 7/16ths threaded cylindrical canisters that Stuart pictured aren't available in the US — or at least I've never seen them, and I've looked.

Bernzomatic 480g MAPP and propane cylinders are widely available. Somewhat alarmingly, the connectors are the same on MAPP and propane cylinders!

HJ

[Stuart R]

Hi Roger

They do in the UK: 35% propane, 65% butane. Sold in hardware stores for use with small blow-torches for soldering plumbing pipes. There is also the Taymar brand and I think Taymar and Campingaz are both owned by Coleman.

[Antti Peltola]

The Brightspark canister I broke was without tube and the contents looked clean. Though unfortuantely this does not mean all of them are clean, and now the seed of doubt has been planted :(

Anyone has experience on field maintenance of the MSR Windpro in case the dirty gas would block it? At least the tool that came with it does not contain anything to clean up the tiny hole in the jet.

Locally we have also available Siever gas cartridges that should be good quaility. The price is a bit bigger but stil less than Primus ones. Think I'll try them too on next winter.

http://www.sievert.se/default.asp?locId=1&langId=1&pageId=6&areaTypeId=2&areaId=22
(weights listed on the webpage).

[Tony Beasley]

The Bernzomatic canister where available in Australia through the hardwear chain Bunnings, but around two years ago they dissapeared off the shelves, my efforts to track some down since have been in vane, I am unable to find these particular canister on the Bernzomatic website.

Tony

[Hikin’ Jim]

It's ever so frustrating when the optimal canister is available — elsewhere. When I was in Japan last year, I saw canisters perfect for an old stove I have — canisters unavailable in the US. But there's no way to get them home.

Likewise, the Bernzomatic type canisters would be a nice addition to the canister types currently available, but alas it cannot be found here (at least where I live).

Good luck on finding some in Australia. Perhaps there are some on the back shelf of a small hardware store in an out-of-the-way spot?

HJ

[Hikin’ Jim]

Jerry Adams wrote: I'de like to be able to use my Lindal stove (like a pocket rocket) with a propane canister because they're cheaper

For car camping where I don't care about weight

Jerry, you can buy on eBay an adapter that will all you to use a 100% propane canister (the green Coleman 16.4oz/465g type) with a standard threaded backpacking stove: http://www.ebay.com/itm/140599310735

I haven't tried one, but supposedly they work. You'd have to be really careful with them. I wouldn't turn it all the way up for fear the flame might "lift off" the burner.

HJ

[Roger Caffin]

> 35% propane, 65% butane.
Oh wow! That would be lovely!
But where to get them in Oz????

Cheers

[Roger Caffin]

Hi Antti

Siever canisters – yeah, good stuff!
Powergas is 35% propane – good!
Ultragas – dunno % composition.
UltraMapp – in powermax-shape canisters with screw thread? Nice.
Premium quality propane in powermax canister with screw thread? Let me at it!

I must pursue this brand!

Now, cleaning the Windpro.
Remove valve and clean with tissue. Clean bore likewise. Remove jet and clean with soft matchstick whittled down or with fine SS or copper wire. Check this before you leave home. Crucial – do NOT use a pin or anything which might be too big for the hole in the jet!!!
Note that some jets have a filter stuck inside the bottom of the jet. This can get clagged up over the years. In which case you will have to remove it.

There is a technical article on stove maintenance in the field at BPL. Sorry – don't have the URL right now. It shows you how to do all of this maintenance. Apart from practicing doing this at home first, the other key teaching is to do all of the maintenance over a large white handkerchief or bandanna inside your tent, so you **don't lose any bits**!

Cheers

[al b]

Now that the thread has started discussing the availability of tall narrow gas cans (for butane blow torches), why not a lateral idea:

for the usual tall narrow mug pots favoured by lightweight enthusiasts,
why not support the pot with a cone (caldera style), with sufficient lower input vents and upper exhaust vents BUT
cut a hole in side of cone thru which the blow torch head protrudes, heating the side of the pot. The gas can remains outside the cone so no overheating worries, and the pot is enclosed in a cone so (hopefully) efficient (is an enclosed cone as good as heatsink fins on jetboil style units I wonder?)

I wonder how light a (cheap?) commercial blow torch could be modified to be?

[Hikin’ Jim]

If the cone is aluminum, you'll most likely melt the cone. If the cone is titanium, it might work, but it'd be a bit of a shame to cut a hole in the titanium. And why not just use a conventional stove? You'd have a heck of a time aiming the torch correctly.

HJ

[al b]

HJ said:
"why not just use a conventional stove?"
1) Allows efficient (like caldera cone) total enclosure in a windshield (hopefully close to that of a Jetboil), without need for a remote gas tube to cylinder.

2) the burner could possibly be light, without too many or too difficult mods.

HJ said:
"You'd have a heck of a time aiming the torch correctly."
I'm sure if the other benefits were compelling enough, a simple, consistent, and light way could be found, by BPL-ers.

[Hikin’ Jim]

Hmm. Maybe.

Say you had something like this:

At least part of the canister is going to be within the cone. I'd be very worried about overheating.

I wouldn't think that the burner head on a blow torch would be any lighter than something like a Monatauk Gnat.

You could figure out a way to wedge rocks and such so that the canister doesn't turn I suppose, but it seems a bit kludgey.

But good ideas. Using non-standard canisters and such, you might come across something worthwhile. I don't think a blow torch with a Caldera Cone is it, but the ideas are worth discussion.

The best use I've found for the bayonet type canisters is refilling standard threaded canisters. :)

HJ

[Roger Caffin]

Hi Jim and Alan

> Say you had something like this:
Beware the Law of Unintended Consequences. There is a good chance it would become a self-immolating fireball.

As a blow torch the air flow goes forward all the time, past the grey plastic body. The plastic stays cool enough. But as a burner inside a Caldera Cone, or even just under a cooking pot, some of the heat will get reflected back onto the plastic. Sooner or later it will soften, and the whole thing may come apart.

Yes, some experience with another plastic body around a canister … It only softened before I realised the danger.

Cheers

[Roger Caffin]

Hi Jim

> The best use I've found for the bayonet type canisters is refilling standard threaded canisters.
Source for the parts??????
:-)

Cheers

[Hikin’ Jim]

Roger,

I've seen refillers on several Japanese websites including alva.ne.jp/. They have a lot of interesting adapters and refillers, none of them cheap.

I bought this one




from eBay seller world_wide_2009. I believe I paid about $43.00 for it, give or take. He doesn't appear to be offering any now.

It's well made and works well. I figure that I'll save money in the long run. I buy the bayonet connector 227g canisters of 100% n-butane for $1.00 from which I can refill two 113g canisters. The 113g canisters cost $5.00 each. Of course n-butane is only good for temperatures of about 40F/5C and up, but I live in a fairly warm place (Los Angeles), and a lot of my outings are in relatively warm weather.

The other nice thing about the refiller is that I can top off canisters. I don't have a lot of half or three-quarter empty canisters laying about. I just top them off before I head out again.

I can also custom fill. If I need 150g of fuel, I can add 150g of fuel to an empty 227g sized canister and just carry what I need. No need to carry home 77g of fuel (if I had carried a full 227g canister) which I had no intention of using.

It's a nice arrangement.

HJ

[Hikin’ Jim]

Addenda to the above:

If I use only ten 113g sized canisters (generally $5.00 each), I've already paid for the above described refiller.

If I use 227g sized canisters (generally $6.00 each), it takes a bit longer to pay for the refiller (I have to go through 2000g of gas), but the end result is the same — the refiller in effect pays for itself.

HJ

[John Nausieda]

HJ and Roger : Is there an adapter to refill Powermax containers of either size?I think some were once listed out of Japan on E-bay before the Tsunami hit. Does anyone have experience at doing this? Are their issues about the canister itself or its valve over time? The Coleman adapter for non-Powermax fuel containers is heavy and the other containers seem sub-optimal at best. Conforming instead to a description of Harley Davidson in the 70's. " If it breaks off make it bigger. If it sticks out : Chrome it."

[Hikin’ Jim]

John:

There is a "P" type refiller for Powermax canisters (170g or 300g, it makes no difference), also (intermittently) available from eBay seller world_wide_2009. The "P" type just refills with n-butane from bayonet type canisters. It'd be a little bit more of a trick though to refill Powermax canisters with propane, and you'd have to be danged careful since propane has such a high vapor pressure. Still, there's no reason why you couldn't do it.

You'd also need a Kovea propane to 7/16ths UNEF adapter which is available on eBay. You'd fill a bayonet connector canister with propane using a combination of the Kovea propane adapter and the threaded refiller I showed photos of earlier in the thread. Then, you'd take your "P" type refiller and transfer the gas from the bayonet connector canister to the Powermax canister.

Pretty Rube Goldberg, but it would work. I think it would be safe enough using bayonet connector canisters for temporary (only!) storage of propane — just long enough to make the transfer. I would chill the canisters before making the transfer.

HJ

[Hikin’ Jim]

Here's a photo of a "P" type refiller in use:

HJ

[al b]

"
HJ said >> Say you had something like this :
Roger said >Beware the Law of Unintended Consequences. There is a good chance it would become a self-immolating fireball.

As a blow torch the air flow goes forward all the time, past the grey plastic body. The plastic stays cool enough
"

Roger and HJ:

It was my intention that the gas cylinder is entirely outside cone, not even touching it
. Similarly, only the tip of the torch is inside the cone, the plastic burner parts would be outside, alcohol cones get hot to touch, but don't radiate much towards my hand, however, I had been assuming a blow torch whose plastic was cosmetic only: something to check.

I may add picture later (needs scanned)

A "long nosed" blow torch might be needed, or perhaps it is possible to safely extend the torch tube (and if safe how easy).

The possible minimalism and efficiency would seem appealing.

[Hikin’ Jim]

Sounds rather cumbersome, but perhaps it would work. I'd love to see a photo or two of the, er, "stove" in use.

First, increase your life insurance and then give it a try. Let us know how it goes.

HJ

[al b]

HJ

No need for life assurance,
I refuse to do anything dangerous (with gas)
:)

NB the stove is still vapour ware, just an idea.

However, another reason the idea appeals to me is that there is not flexible gas tube (like on remote stove) yet pot is enclosed in windscreen.

[Author]

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