.380 on a ultralight backpacking/camping trip?

[larry savage]

A true ultralighter would carry 3-44 magnum cartridges and a nail.

[Chad Miller]

All made out of titanium, you know so it's light and won't rust. :P

[Ty Ty]

All this "won't kill a bear" stuff I hear tossed around is silly. You can kill a 2,000lb cow with a .22 it's been done many millions of times. Granted its with a well placed head shot which you won't have on a bear that is charging or attacking you but it could be done by an experienced marksman that was able to stay calm. Even with a .50 caliber mega bear Alaskan sized pistol you need to make a head shot or a heart/lung/liver shot which is no easy task on a charging bear either.

I would also argue that 8 rounds of .380 fired with the muzzle pressed into a bear's chest as it is mauling you is going to do a hell of a lot of damage, even more if you can press it into any area of the head and get a shot off. If I was being mauled I would sure rather have a .380 with 8 rounds in my hand versus a big hand full of 'there is no need to carry a gun in the back country'. I'm sure everyone who has ever been mauled to death by a bear would have preferred to have had a gun.

I think all of these are as likely a scenario as being able to hit a bear in a vital area with a shotgun, rifle, or large caliber pistol. That is what makes ANY gun not a great option.

As far as using any gun to kill/ward off a bear attack, consider a lot of people killed by bears are hunting and carrying a rifle. Also this most recent one in the news the cause of death was actually a gunshot wound to the chest of the guy being mauled by his hunting partner that was trying to save him. He did kill the bear though as well as his buddy so some would say he may have saved his own life or saved himself from being a second attack victim but killing your hunting buddy is a pretty big price to pay for that.

Which brings it all back around to bear spray and the reason why I think a lot of people advocate it as a better defense than a gun. Even if you are being mauled if you can get to the spray and set it off all over the place you will nail yourself but also get the bear and likely stop the attack. The only two scenarios that I don't like the idea of spray is…

(1) bear charging into you from downwind, you whip out the spray, spray into wind, spray comes back and hits you, not the bear. Now you are being mauled while blinded. Maybe some of the residual spray gets in bears eyes?

(2) bear grabs you in your tent, now what? Cant spray in tent you will only spray yourself. You have to try and get your arm and the bear spray out of the tent? Maybe the spray will have some effect through the tent.

Either scenario leaves you heavily sprayed and blinded with a potential blinded bear in the vicinity. I don't like that part either. So now you and the bear are roaming around blinded. Hopefully you regain composure and get away before he does right? But then again, according to most of ya'll a shot bear is a revengeful bear so isn't that same revenge filled bear tracking you down to get you back for pepper spraying him and/or shooting him?

None of these sound like good options. How much does that hamster ball thing weight?

[Ty Ty]

BTW, the argument that if you shoot a grizzly he is going to come maul you and a black bear 50/50 chance of having that happen is not a good argument against guns against bears. You would only shoot a bear that was moments from mauling you anyway, I don't think anyone is advocating you see a bear peacefully walking at a distance and you shoot it. What they are saying is bear is charging, ears back, going to tackle and maul you. So you start shooting, maybe you get a shot off before being nailed. Now you are being mauled…who cares at that point…you are currently being mauled you might as well try shooting the bear otherwise curl up in a ball and take your chances. I'd rather have anything at that point, be it bear spray, a .380 or whatever.

[Chad Miller]

Ty have you ever shot and incapacitated anything over the size of a whitetale deer with a handgun load?

Have you ever been mauled by anything over the size of 60 pound dog?

If you can't answer yes to either of these questions then please stop giving advice.

Thanks.

[adam spates]

I've been attacked on the job by a 120lb dog. I am required to carry pepper spray which is more potent than any bear spray. I emptied it on the dog and to my surprise with good aim. His nose, eyes, mouth and face were covered. The dog didn't miss a beat. It might as well been string cheese.

[Ty Ty]

Chad – I have killed a 200lb wild pig with a .22 rifle, one shot at 30 yards to the ear fell over dead. I even know a ton of hunters that believe the only thing that can kill a wild pig is a .30 caliber rifle or larger.

My grandfather owned packing houses where they killed many dozen head of cattle upwards of 1,500lbs a day with a single shot .22 rifle.

I hear all this stuff about needing a .50 raging bull to kill a grizzly, my point is if you don't hit it in the right spot you aren't going to kill is just because the caliber is larger. The kill zone is still very small, especially head on/running/charging. If you do hit it in the right PERFECT spot then almost any gun will kill almost any animal. Also poor shot placement on any large animal is not going to make up for lack of caliber. Big caliber's don't kill animals, shot placement kills animals.

What about that wildlife officer that killed the grizzly with one shot from a .357? The one that was being released. If you talk to all the gun experts they would tell you a .357 is a worthless caliber against a grizzly, might as well not even have it cause .357 bullets bounce off of grizzly. I bet that guy was happy to have his .357 as he used it to save his own life.

Then you have the two hunters here recently with high caliber rifles, the one guy shot his buddy trying to get the bear off of him. What good did a high caliber hunting rifle do them?

It's all in the scenario. I think anyone as they were being attacked, if offered a .380 would be glad to accept it as any chance is better than no chance.

[Ty Ty]

Here is another example…that big group of boys out recently where 3 of them got attacked. I read several if not all in the group had bear spray, nobody used it apparently there was no time. In that case a gun would have been worthless too because nobody had a chance to use it (or possibly nobody had the courage to do anything but run).

Nothing is the cure all, nothing makes you bear proof other than the low statistics of bear attacks. I don't care if you are Annie Oakley nobody knows how they will react much less shoot in a situation like that.

And yes, if you are being mauled by an 800lb grizzly its going to be hard to accomplish anything but again…any chance is better than no chance. I have read multiple grizzly attack stories where the bear releases the victim then saunters back for more. It sure would be nice to have anything to reach for in that scenario be it bear spray or a .380. As it came back over I'd rather be squeeze off a .380 round at it's face/ear area and hope for the best than sit there waiting to be chewed on some more. Or have some bear spray to spray, either way.

My point is, neither bear spray nor guns work all the time but there are lots of stories where and under powered gun (or bow) have saved someone. There are also a lot that have been saved with bear spray. There are a lot of stories of people becoming victims while possessing bear spray or firearms (both under and over-powered). It's a crap shoot regardless when being attacked by a huge bear so IF you feel the need to prepare for such an unlikely event, statistically speaking, bring whatever you want. I think statistics favor bear spray versus firearms but I think a lot of that information is compiled by liberal sources that do not favor guns anyway. But pick your poison, nothing is a sure bet even a bazooka that people joke about.

[Eric Blumensaadt]

… said Robert Ruark, the American writer on African hunting. And for any bear a .44 magnum revolver is my (minimum) choice – in titanium, from Smith & Wesson or Tarus.

But we've had this discussion many times before here on BPL and the ONLY black bears that somewhat consistantly attack humans live on Vancouver Island, B.C. hee I'd carry but the Canucks strongly frown on even their own carrying pistolas.

So, yes, I carry the largest can of bear spray and pray for no bears. Only had to draw it twice, both times in Yosemete – on the same trip.

Call me alarmist but, as I've said before, if I were in grzzly country I'd have that ti .44 magnum on my hip – and the bear spray on the other hip.

[Harold Baquet]

I'm a bearspray advocate. Unless you find yourself blindsided with your pants down, ( the thing that keeps me up at night) most bear encounters evolve spacially and escalate gradually. Your response should probably escalate gradually also, based on the space between you and the bear. First, you would use your bear bell-banger or compact air horn, light weight but laughable to most bears at any distance. (my experience) As range gets closer, I've used "bear rocks" across the ass, with great effect. They usually run away and avoid the area the rest of your stay. Bearspray is good when they get within 30 feet, Though I would have thrown every fist sized stone within reach by then. We are always ready to deploy the chemical deterant, and lately, seems like everyone has a can of spray riding in a holster on their hip or cargo pocket or clipped to a backpack, ready to go. You can now purchase smaller, lighter cans, which don't last as long as the larger ones, we're talking a few seconds here, for a few onces there. So far, bearspray works fine for me and is part on a flexible strategy for managing my families backcountry risk.
As for handguns in the backcountry, I'm for whatever works. If you choose to go with the heavier, handgun alternative, I'd only hope that you'd place the first couple of rounds into the ground, as an acoustic deterant. Let's face it, being forced to shoot a bear while out light weighting it would be a genuine tragedy. let's see…Guess you'd just pay the fine, mount the rug, and have to explain the gaping holes in the skull to your house guest. …
I recently met a young lady, (she was 57 years old) who was through-hiking the AT with a tarp tent and ultra light rig. She blasted past my wife and I, with our 15 pound base weights, like we were standing still. Truth is,, we were standing still at the time, resting under our loads. Her ultralight solution to AT black bear, a few M-80 firecrackers in a ziplock, separate from her lighter. These things go "Boom", are as loud as a .45auto and can take you'd finger off, so be careful and don't start a fire. I guess you'd drop it at your feet, with you and the bear running in opposite directions. The idea is to show them a bad experience, so they don't associates humans with food or pleasure.

Ok, this being a lightweight forum, I'd like to read a little more commentary on those heavy bear canisters that are all the rage in the Northwest these days. The carbon fiber version is lighter but cost over a hundred dollars more.WTF?

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