Approaching 4lb barrier….need feedback on modded MLD Poncho Tarp Specifically

[Bryce]

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=27890&disable_pagination=1

[Bryce]

Looks like there are a few windshirts @ ~3oz so I revised my post above. Hrmmm, the weight savings of the MLD Poncho Tarp w/ Bivy and windshirt is widening the gap w/ the tarp, bug shelter and Driducks:

1.56oz difference in buggy weather
2.36oz difference in non-buggy weather

That's significant, but there is a price to pay:

– If it's buggy out, you best be in that bivy and hiking until you drop into your bivy/sleeping bag at night as you won't want to spend much time farting around camp.

-If it is extremely hot and buggy out, being inside a bivy, even if on top of your bag/quilt, that won't be fun.

– Gotta be good with that small poncho/tarp in shelter mode. Yes you have the water resistant bivy, but in a nasty storm I want some coverage darnit! :p

– Haven't read up much on condensation w/ bivys.

– You are hiking with a poncho, with more cumbersome than a rain jacket. I'd have concern over the rocky, scrambling trails we have in NE.

[Bryce]

It's between the first two options….can go extreme with GG Bug Canopy (not full body coverage, prob pretty bad with a quilt) and Suluk bivy (expensive and more fragile), but even without it still has been narrowed down:

https://spreadsheets.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AhjLmk_trl6BdFMwQnljc1ZaVlVXM1M2NVZnbXdRbEE&hl=en_US

Decisions, decisions! haha.

[Bryce]

If I hung the hood on the trekking pole (I would have the pole right side up) and then used the drawstrings in the hook to cinch it around the pole, then used two lengths of guy line to go in one sleeve and out the bottom of that side of the jacket, and the same on the other side. This would not totally seal out water in a storm, but would go a long way. And if I had a bivy with me, that could handle the rest of the exposed side of the half-pyramid. Thoughts?

[Nate Meinzer]

I did that once. Strung a rain jacket across the opening of a 5×7 tarp in half-pyramid shape. It didn't give me as much coverage as I thought, but I'm very small, and have a small rain jacket. So who knows, maybe a bigger jacket would have worked better? Worth a shot!

Or for the weight of two probars, you could have a tarp big enough to sit up in and not get splashed. That's where I'm at.

[Steven McAllister]

The half pyramid poncho with ultralight water resistant bivy would probably about the lightest option if bug protection is a major concern.

There are quite a few people who don't bother with the bivy and have hiked thousands of miles.
Some use a head net over baseball style cap as their only bug protection, some no bug protection at all.

On my last hike, we camped near a shelter in an area thick with mosquitoes. A young DEC employee/ranger, cowboy camped with us, without a bivy. He ended up borrowing Luis' head net for the night and said he slept a lot better because of it.

But, consider Earl Shaffer(poncho) or Grandma Gatewood(shower curtain) who never felt the need for bug nets and found their tarps perfectly adequate for their AT thru-hikes.

[J-L]

Have you looked at this Bug Sock for bug protection?

http://www.mydiygear.com/pages/projects/bug-protection/bugsock.php

I know it's for a hammock, but I don't see any reason it wouldn't give full body bug protection for ground sleepers too. You might be able to make it even lighter since it would just have to fit over yourself and not yourself + hammock.

Also, instead of a windshirt, what about using an emergency poncho? There's a DriDucks emergency poncho that weighs 2.8 oz and is 88'' x 40'' when unfolded (http://www.froggtoggsoutlet.com/drempodd.html). You could wear it while setting up a poncho tarp and use it for extra protection over any openings. It is pretty thin though.

[Walter Carrington]

Tulle (bridal veil material) is 0.28 oz/square yard and is available in 108" wide width. You could simplify papasmurf's bug sock at mydiygear.com by just rolling up a tube of tulle of whatever diameter you want and length up to 108" and tying the two ends closed. Use considerable overlap and enter by crawling into the overlapped region. Even if you made a tube 4' in diameter and 108" long it would be about 12 square yards or 3.36 oz, not counting overlap.

Use polycryo as a ground sheet under this.

http://www.tulledirect.com/acatalog/illusion-50-Yards-108-Inches-Wide-black.html

The DriDucks emergency poncho is fairly flimsy, definitely no bushwhacking with it, but it might work as John suggests.

[Steven Evans]

Bryce, I got your email, and apologize for this late reply. Looks like you have already got some great suggestions. Because of my height, when the rain is bad, I pitch it in a-frame. I have even pitched it right to the ground and slid in like a snake. The head of my bivy is made of cuben fiber and doesn't need protection, my feet usually hold out well if any comes in but I have blocked the end with my backpack many time. I think I have basically become accustomed to the small space and it doesn't bother me.

My half pyramid get's pitched very low if there is potential for a sprinkle or two. If you really wanted half pyramid even in bad rain, I think a beak would be a good idea. You could probably make it out of a lighter cuben fiber because it would small and not your main shelter. Something half as big as my N2 tarp would be just under an ounce and provide great protection.

As for bugs, it is easy to get used to a headnet but in the dead of summer up here (as long as the forecast isn't too bad) I have started using a one of my bug bivys instead. My epiphany quilt (Enlightened Equipment) holds off rainspray great.

Let us know what you go with.

[philip winin]

Cut a trapezoid to fit where you made your red marks and use packing tape with masons line to line up with the holes. Bout 2 ounces?

grog

[Bryce]

That might work, but it'd add weight! :p

I think I'm going to go with "Option 1" from my spreadsheet, the plain CF tarp and dedicated rain jacket.

It's 1.66 oz heavier in bug season, but has much more likable bug protection when sleeping/under the tarp. In non-bug season, option 1 is 4+ oz lighter (unless you purchase a SULUK bivy w/ no bug netting, in which case Opt. 1 is .16oz heavier than Opt. 2, the MLD Poncho and Bivy, but I don't think I'm a bivy person.) It also provides better rain coverage and easier to hike in a jacket vs. poncho. Anyway, so many ways to go about it, it really has to suit the individual.

[John Chong]

Would you have saved weight by not using a pack liner with a poncho set up?

For me, I know I would use a pack liner even in poncho mode, so it loses a bit of multi-usefulness.

I think going a tapered cattarp would be the best for me. 9x7x5. Use driducks for rain protection.

[Sean Staplin]

For high wind/rain conditions I pitch the 1/2 pyramid wide and low. When it gets really bad I just pull in the lower end of the pole while maintaining tension on one edge. Not a perfect no muss setup, but effective if at or above tree line in swirling windy rain. When the wind lets up I just prop the pole back up.

[Bryce]

Good point on the pack liner. I will maintain my pack liner (moving from compactor bag to lighter nylofume bag) as it provided that extra bit of protection for my legs in my big Cub Den 1.5 when it was really coming down on the highest peak in the Catskills:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E0YsRC4L4VU

For those of you who can get away with a poncho tarp and no bivy you either have:

– A lot of luck
– A lot of skill (which I don't have)
– A lot of sunshine. :p

I also don't trust my down JRB quilt to just sit in the bottom of my silnylon GG Mariposa or Murmur and then just have a poncho protecting it. Too much to chance with the only piece of insulating gear I can wear (I wear it as a serape for insulating garment around camp) or sleep in when in SUL mode.

I am with John Chong w/ driducks, and cat tarp.

[John Giesemann]

8.25 oz – ZPacks Hexamid CF Tent
1.6 oz – GossamerGear Polycro Ground Cloth
5.35 Oz – DriDucks (modded) your numbers
15.20 Oz Total

Pros – Excellent coverage from rain, Dedicated Rain Jacket
Cons – Same weight all seasons

Could go with ZPacks Hexamid CF Tarp for 3.2 oz, 7.15 oz total.

[John Chong]

John, does the hexamid solo offer great rain protection?

[Bryce]

I originally considered the Hexamid and did not feel it offered enough rain protection alone (based of INET research, can't say for sure) and price, such that I could leave the bivy at home. For me personally…I was right. I bought the bigger (slightly heavier) Cub Den 1.5 and had great coverage from the shelter such that I did not need the bivy. The next iteration will be separate shelter (tarp) that is big enough to not need a bivy, and bug shelter (most likely bug shelter) so that I can take just what I need depending on conditions.

[Brian Hall]

I used the MLD pro poncho and a superlight bivy for a while. I even purchased a alpinlite bug shelter to use with the tarp, but after thinking about it, I was at 17oz or 18oz with those setups. I could have gone with the silnylon duomid with alot more room and full rain coverage for slightly less weight. The only difference being bug protection(most of my backpacking is fall and winter so none is really needed), and having to carry separate rain gear(mine weighs 14oz for jacket and pants). I ended up selling my poncho/tarp setup and ordering a duomid. When it is supposed to rain, I will just suck it up and carry the extra weight. My base weight runs right around 5lbs, so that little bit of extra weight is hardly noticeable.

[Pilate de Guerre]

Woopsies. Wrong tab.

[Adam Kilpatrick]

Hi Bryce

sounds like you have a plethora of options, just thought I'd chuck more into the mix.

MLD Cuben poncho-there was a thread on BPL a while ago on it, where Ron said he'd adjust dimensions for people as a custom option. Ask him-he'll probably do it…adding width would be easy, a beak would be harder.

On the Silnylon Pro Poncho page, he now has a line stating that he'll do a custom full cuben version of that for $300 if you call first. I'd hazard a guess that such a poncho might start giving you enough coverage. 5.75oz is pretty impressive for such a well-featured poncho tarp with such good coverage. Mmmm thats got me drooling.

Third idea is one I'm toying with (when I'm no longer a poor student); get a cuben shelled quilt, like an Enlightened Equipment Epiphany. Spray won't be an issue at all with that, you could just use the standard MLD cuben poncho then.

Sorry I'm not really thinking much about the bugs in this, thats extra. But you could get a piece of say momentum 50 or cuben sewn into that quilt (add about 1.5oz) to give it a floor, and then use a head net. Do you hike with long sleeves or pants anyway?

Good luck, post photos of the results however you go :-)

Adam

[Ben C]

The dwr on my bag seems to handle spray just fine. Seems like a cuben quilt would have serious condensation issues.
With a good dwr, I am not sure why so many feel the need for a ivy also. Isn't that just a dwr shell over a dwr shell?

[Adam Kilpatrick]

I guess by using a DWR bivy you eliminate the seams, so water will bead all the way off (not all of it, it will eventually wet through) much more easily. But yeah, I've never been totally sold myself on DWR bivies, thats why I don't own one. I've never had any trouble with wind; I position gear eg pack etc on the wind side or pitch tarp edge close to the ground.

Yep, Cuben will have condensation issues on the inside. I think I'm willing to give it a shot in a couple of years though; it will be humid but warm. Its also light! One thing I'm not sure about (need to search the forums…) is whether a down jacket underneath a VBL quilt is a good idea or not…I imagine the down will start to wet out. If thats the case, a Synthetic jacket is a better idea, which of course weighs more, but then it starts getting complicated as to whether or not the cuben shelled quilt is a good idea anymore or not…is it better then to have a DWR quilt that breathes, and invest another ounce or so somewhere on better shelter coverage?…which is getting into the realm of the tough question posted by the OP.

I guess the only real way to know these things is to bite the bullet and shell out some clams for all the gear and get some experience using it, then decide! So many $$$ though, ouch!

[Ben C]

I am not a huge fan of a bivy either. Seems to me you can spend an extra ounce or 2 to get enough coverage to avoid a bivy and all it's down sides: he weight, condensation concerns, and comfort. The only time I rethink my decision re a larger tarp is when the only good sleeping spot I cam find is a small one.

[Larry Dyer]

I hate that I'm late to this thread but I haven't had much time lately. It's awesome to see a dedicated SUL forum!

Anyway, earlier this year I started a thread dealing with a similar concept but using a pack liner that could double as the beak when pitched as a "mini-tarp" in addition to the poncho tarp in half pyramid mode. Unfortunately I had to abandon the idea for the time being but if you run with it the general consensus seemed to be the best approach would be a hobo bag design of sorts. Basically it'd be a square of the appropriate size with a drawcord around the edges to pull it into a bag, then wrap, and tie the top up and fold it down to create the liner. The final product would of course be Cuben Fiber.

I never got out of the prototyping stage but the basic idea seemed to work as a pack liner anyway.

The big question is how big would the sqaure need to be to over lap the tarp and provide a big enough beak? And would this be to much weight vs. having it permanently attached to the tarp? Remember that you can cut the pack liner from the list if you use one so that's about 1.5 extra ounces to work with.

Hey Bryce,

Coming into this thread really late, so you can just take my few thoughts as what they are.

The more I hike the more I realize is sucks sitting under a tarp or inside of a tent that just does not provide good protection from the weather.

So, the longer I hike the more I realize that counting grams for the winter season is just not worth it. Yeah, I have a XUL summer setup, yeah I have SUL shoulder season setup, but when it is winter time, my setup gear goes up nearly two pounds in weight. It sucks getting wet, it sucks being cold at night, and it sucks not having the right gear to make your trip enjoyable.

Just some thoughts to think about Bryce.

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