Please someone explain this to me

women on BPL may not be representative

ive shopped with and for women … and very few of them would wear mens clothing even if it fit them

usually they want pretty colours, slim fit, shorter fit, fashionable design … exactly what manuf are trying to give them

are they serious hikers? … they wont do a thru hike, put it that way …. but they will go on overnighters

there are quite a few women out there whove told me straight out … "i wont wear a big puffy cause it makes me look fat"

course these women may be a tad younger than the BPL demographic ;)

remember that the outdoor clothing industry is more about fashion than actual performance these days despite all the fancy claims and "goretex" stickers aside … LOOKING outdoorsy is more important than actually using the gear …

dont believe me? … just hit up a local sbucks in an outdoorsy town …

Robert, I have a patagonia xs r1 hoodie and it is big on me but I can live with it,I have tried on other xs stuff of theirs and it is too big.montbell mens size small is also big on me but I have a few things like the ul wind jacket that I can live with but not much else,arc'teryx I have never tried,wow are they expensive and unless it runs smaller than the patagonia stuff I don't think it would fit.On patagonia size chart it says xs is a 4-6 women's and I am a size 2 or sometimes 0 depending on the maker.Believe me it's not like I have never thought wearing smaller mens clothing I look all the time,I even own a few childrens quick dry shirts but childrens clothing is cut way different than adults(wide in the body and short in the sleeves)and are made with cheaper materials.It is also not just an age thing,I have never liked scoop collars or capped sleeves(I was a punk rocker)and I also don't see their function.It's funny how on the women's line of patagonia runshade the front comes down so far that you would get sun burned if you were to wear it so what is the point,the mens doesn't do that.

As a group, more men are willing to "go along", whereas more women want more different styling, colors, pocket sizes, etc. Look at general retailing — and see just how much more variety there are for women clothing and shoes — as compared to the men's section! To satisfy women more, outdoor retailers will have to expand commensurately — and devote vastly more space to women than men — just as in general retailing. But until a lot more women hit the outdoors, that won't happen, simply because the economics won't work.

There are clothes out there that are functional and look good, just not that many. Cute is subjective, too. If you have a fit body then form fitting and functional is "cute" in my opinion. Bright, prints, tiny pockets are cute for some, but not others.

The outdoor companies are thinking about this the wrong way. They should target more women, my wife has all my money! Think about it…

i definitely wont disagree with that ben … women are DEFINITELY more picky

i can get a guy any jacket in the right size as a present … and theyll be happy

cant do that with many women … they need to try it on, look at all the pretty features, look themselves in the mirror, etc … not all women, but the majority i know

nor can i even trust the women sizes … in men's im pretty confident that im a medium in most US brands … there is a well know fudging with sizes in womens clothing in the US where the larger sizes are given a small size, so that women dont feel "fat" … ie yr more likely to buy a small size piece that fits you even if you arent really a small

not saying it happens with all brands … but the size can be quite variable

as to why slim sizes and fits? … this is going to sound cruel so stop reading if you dont like it …

but as an outdoor company that wants young fit slim active people wearing my clothing, or the appearance of such … and attract those yuppies who want to feel young again, or the appearance of such … i want those types of people wearing my clothing … not people who dont "fit" the image … i personally dont agree with it, but its the same as nightclubs not letting in certain people, or other clothing brands not producing plus women sizes

someone once posted on the patagucci facebook something like "why dont you make women plus sizes" … the basic responses were from posters were like … "go shop at LL bean or wmt", "go outdoors and lose weight", etc …

if there was money retailers would do it … or if you think theres an opportunity and they are wrong, go do it yrself

thats my elitist, sexist male piggay rant for the day ;)

Hey Justin, how did you know exactly it was a Yuppie? Lol….you must be psychic :-P Did ya holler down the valley "Hey duuuuude! Did you buy that at Mt. Hardwear?"

Just for that I think I am going hiking this weekend in ALL hot pink – above treeline.

Seriously, if you let a red jacket ruin your view you need to relax! Better that than some old dude out for a nude hike on a popular trail….or the family of 12 who plop down 3 feet away from your lunch at a scenic lake when there is acres of places to sit.

Yeah . That family of 12 with a total I.Q. to match,

As well, I look at REI, GoLite, Patagonia, etc. and it seems to be that the women's selection is equal to men's — if not a bit more actually. But as mentioned above, I think women are simply more used to the vast selections that they find in general clothing and shoe stores — and feel "constricted" in outdoor retailing stores — when in fact, the selection is really no less than men's.

I don't ever shop in the women's section and have no experience with individual item selection (obviously). But I really do feel that their section is just as large as men's — if not slightly larger.

I'll just add that my girlfriend just ordered the green Montbell Alpine Light Down Parka and it has to go back. That shade of green is just awful. The other color options aren't much better either. When searching it seemed like previous year models had more reasonable colors, just nothing available in a medium anymore. I can't make any sense of the current season color choices.

OK, can we quit harping on Yuppies. Jeez, be happy that there are still people who have $$ to spend on clothing in the recession. Who cares what they buy! It doesn't spoil anyone else's adventure!

I don't feel guilty that I have a North Face jacket that I wear in town – it is nice, warm and functional (but simply too warm to wear while hiking). I don't feel guilty that I wear Chaco and Keen shoes in town. They are comfy! Ooh, today in Starbucks I had a lady ask me what brand of sandals I was wearing becuase they were….CUTE!

And ya know, if someone wears $300 jeans while hiking big freaking whoop!

Right, Sarah. I love my bright Gecko green PataG' Nano Puff. I'm definitely no yuppie …AND…I like to wear my "gear clothes" around town. There's a reason – it fits and feels good. I'd wear it all the time and wear it out if it wasn't so expensive.

So, in the eyes of some here, I guess in the city I look like a yuppie. And on the trail I look like city folk fresh out of REI (yuppie). How do you really know? But either way, does it really matter?

Perspective is an interesting thing.

I believe it's "Hike Your Own Hike," no?

i consider wearing a red or orange shell a SMART decision in an alpine area … not a dumb one

nor a yuppie one ;)

Well first of all, I would highly advise people against hiking in the outdoors. I remember climbing to the top of a mountain in Denali National Park and I was enjoying the amazing, breathtaking view until some hiker caught my eye about 4 miles down in the narrow valley. It kinda ruined it for me, as I like to go into the wilderness for solitude.

I am dying to make fun of Sarbar's "lifestyle clothing" comment, but she has given me far too many great recipes to ever say an unkind word. So you go girl. You're a goddess. In hot pink even.

Just to add something new to this thread, it could be that more than American color tastes are involved… and it affects men's clothing as well as women's. Visited the Marmot storefront in San Francisco on a layover last month and asked why their hooded, 8 oz (published), lined Ether windshirt did not come in more subdued colors (I prefer light grey to blend in everywhere). Was told that Europeans tend to like more colorful outdoor clothing and they were trying to sell more over there. Great. Looks like the craze of late 1980's (teal + purple) might be making a comeback. Everyday being a MYOG-type looks better and better.

Then again for snowshoeing, maybe "search and rescue" orange is a viable option.

This rant thread is hilarious.

I'm not exactly sure what the grip is anymore. I think it's about small pockets and sales and colors and cuts and fabrics. Are the colors "too boring" or "too bright?" And even though women have twice as many options as men, there is still discontent. And, to top it all off, this is the product of discrimination against women… with a big D.

This issue is important to me, because eleven (Dicey Jane, Gumbi, Fern, Mega, Banshee, Z, Belcher, Softball, Red, Party Time, and Biz) out of twelve (Mad Max being the only guy) of my hiking and backpacking partners are women. I don't want to see them going out into the wilderness unprepared! Also, in addition to backpacking with all of these ladies, I've gone shopping for gear with all but two of them. So, I believe I have a pretty good sense of what's available for women.

The issue isn't discrimination. It's that men wear somewhat baggy clothing is sizes S, M, L, and maybe XL, which come in three colors: black, grey and "color." While, women seem to come in an almost endless assortment of body-types and with an infinite array of opinions on what constitutes "cute." For example, hikinggranny, you were wrong about the fit of the rain shell. My GF is taller than me, with a lean, muscular, yoga instructors body (which she is employed to teach) and long arms and legs. The shell jacket I bought for her has a tight cut, and is long in her torso and short on her arms. The rest of these ladies range in height and weight and dimension (edit: well, I won't share all those numbers, but I know them). None of these women are short on outdoor clothing options when we backpack.

Finally, with regard to sales. All the sales I see are things like 20% ALL clothing or 15% student discount or whatever. Perhaps we just have more equitable stores where we live, but I doubt that's the case.

Overall, I guess this rant just makes me laugh, because with all the household spending power that women control, particularly around clothing, I'd be shocked if these companies weren't carefully testing and marketing toward women.

I've never had issues with finding things on sale but, 9 times out of 10 the shirts I find on the clearance and sales racks are cotton and most of them don't work!

You can't have non gender specific clothes and have them work. If companies did that, I'd have pants that fit in the hips but felt like a circus tent in the legs or fit in the legs but I wouldn't be able to get it over my big butt. Companies are not even pretending to actually make things in a Woman's cut. Even Marmot, who insists their items are "not a smaller men's" still, do not accommodate for one of the two most important differences between men and women: Hips! No matter what company I buy from, I am always having to undo my hip strap and pull my shirt down or my pants up because they don't make room for my hips and slide one way or the other. Then there's the worst issue for me, crawling shorts that I'm constantly pulling down because with every step they crawl up my legs a little more. The only people who have even done a remotely good job that I've tried is Columbia. I could care less about the colors and I really feel there are bigger issues with clothes than color and frankly I'd take it in hot pink (a color I hate) if it worked for a change.

Also have to +1 all the people who pointed out that half the clothes are "yoga" clothes and the other half are pants that are too low in the waist and jackets that don't hang past my belly button. If I can't put my arms up without my mid section showing I don't buy it, so that cuts out A LOT of options.

"If I can't put my arms up without my mid section showing I don't buy it…"

+2 here! I have no desire to expose my not-very-beautiful midriff (no woman's is after 5 pregnancies) to the local mosquito population!

For me, too, hips are an issue! Mine are just naturally 4-5 inches bigger than my upper body measurements, even when I'm underweight! That makes it difficult for me to wear either men's or women's tops (most of us women can otherwise wear men's tops if we don't mind them baggy) unless I buy them 2 sizes too big for my upper body.

As I said before, most of that "large selection of women's clothing" you men are so envious of is completely unsuitable for backpacking, and a large proportion of the rest won't fit those of us females who don't have an anorexic model figure.

Part of this is due to outsourcing production to China. I was there for over a year and saw many U.S. brands in local markets. The sizes were often way off. The Chinese are very slim and small for the most part and I think this tendency has entered the supply chain . I regularly see stuff at department stores that has that look of weird glitz and skinny sizing that says"Beijing" to me. But KFC . Pizza Hut . and Big Macs will soon adjust the sizing and the disease rates.

If I could whine it would be that the majority of clothing – all clothing, not just outdoorsy is made for small boobage. If you wear above a B things get weird. Above a C and you might as well hang a sign on them that says "HELLO!"

So big boobs and the shirts ride up in front and then stretch out weirdly – puckering the fabric.

Oh yeah, and near see through fabric. If you get high beams going in the cold and you can see EVERYPART of the high beam it isn't good…well unless you are a guy staring.

It is also why women with bigger cup size have to spend serious cash for good bras. You guys think you have it tough? Try finding maybe one or two bras that work, don't look matronly and support high intensity activities – and don't cost more than $55. Yeah, fat chance. When I was pregnant with the last baby I had to buy bras just for those few months that I can't wear now! I spent nearly $150 so I could just walk in comfort!!

Here here for bra sizes and big hips, that's my problem right there. I would totally wear men's clothing if I could get some that actually fit correctly. Totally don't mind drab colors, unfortunately I'm shaped like a woman, big butt, big top, if I could buy just for my waist size I'd be in heaven. Most women's outdoor clothing is not made for real women, look what REI did to the Sahara pants this year. Ruler straight from top to bottom and crap for pockets. Oh!!! And notice how the guys got the no-sit zips and we didn't? What's up with that? Guys get cool stuff and we deal with second rate, inferior material, heavy, pocketless weird stuff.

Jess

Marketing, bell curves, design by committee, fashion over function, bad choices, stuff designed by people who have never stepped of the pavement, and God only knows what else.

It's obvious to me: girls should stay home and wear pink and make cakes. They shouldn't be climbing mountains and running around the woods :)

go talk to them …

http://blog.firstascent.com/2011/07/19/no-boys-allowed-guide-team-women-meet-to-develop-womens-product-line/?utm_source=Twitterfeed&utm_medium=Twitter&utm_campaign=Born+Out+There

You’ve all seen the slogan “Guide Built” on the First Ascent ads, but you must wonder what that slogan really means and how it applies to the brand.

Tell us: What would you like to see in our women’s line?

Well, I have very limited experience in this matter. Additionally, I have never compared the size of the sales or areas of the store devoted to each gender. I did, however, attempt, at one point a few years back, to purchase a fleece for my then-girlfriend. She was Florida raised, and therefore very unprepared for any kind of cold. This would be an item for use around town, as she was not a backpacker. I wanted to buy her a fleece from an outdoor company because 1) I knew that the name brand would hold a lot of weight to her as it would imply warmth and comfort, etc. (I know this is kind of lame, but you use these thoughts when crafting successful presents) and 2) I hoped that I would be able to find one that kept her warm and comfortable. I felt I would be more successful at this than she might have been shopping in a mall somewhere. My observation: this was a really tough assignment. All fleeces I could find were either a) really thin or b) designed to show off her midriff if she put her hands up. After many trips to many different outdoor stores, I finally found a fleece that was thick enough to offer some warmth and long enough to cover her midriff for normal range of motion. At this point, I picked the color that looked the best to me. Sadly, I picked the wrong color and we had to exchange it, but the fleece was another gift in a long line of gifts that I had given that were homeruns. It should not have been this difficult, though, in my opinion.

I cannot comment on the general state of women's gear or the sale racks or whatever, but I can say that my one attempt at finding a relatively simple item was a real barn burner.