Do you REALLY need a bivy with a poncho tarp?

Can it be done yes. Would I personally do it no. With expeiance it's doable but I dont find the 6 ounce weight saving worth the risk. All it takes is a wind change and you have splash coming in

Probably depends on where you hike and how experienced you are at setting it up and choosing sites. I will say that with that small of tarp, a bivy would really be beneficial in most environments.

No bivy would be fine in drier climates where the average humidity is low.
You could also use a full coverage poncho like the Gatewood Cape.

You would get some spray in a flat poncho tarp pitched low, with heavy and/or windblown rain. But if you get dry periods to dry out, it should be fine.

I now hike in areas where you can go days with high humidity and rain every day, even in August. So I do use a bivy as the wetness would just keep building up after days of rain. So I need the extra splash/spray protection.

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=46878

….and I bought a nice shelter as a result. haha
(bivy would of worked too)

what tarp did you get?

Hrmm….not sure why it's not working for you. Just search for "Dumb luck? (I carry poncho tarp & down bag, no bivy)"

I went with a BearPaw Cub Den 1.5

I used an army poncho for years. I moved to about a 5.5" x 8" silnylon style tarp (from campmor I believe) and added some accessory pullout straps on the back. I basically pitched it low with it's back to the weather/ wind direction and then added a stick through the pull out straps to give some more head room. I used a plain plastic poly drop cloth as a ground cloth.

I never used a bivy with the tarp although I always had synthetic bags. Now with the modern fabrics, I am considering it.

I do have a bivy (a gore tex army one) but it is VERY heavy by comparison (at least 2 lbs) and it never seemed to be worth it except for car / backyard camping.

For a weekend, it is easy to balance the risk. Just my 2 cents…

Another reason I use a bivy under my poncho tarp is for bugs. Flying and crawling.
Ever wake up and realize you are sleeping on an ant bed:-)

Of course my bivy has a bug net, not all do.
The bivy does add some warmth if the cold wind is a blowin.

I do recommend a highly breathable bivy or you will get condensation inside.
You can also suspend the top of most bivys by attaching it it to a ridge line.
This improves ventilation and can also make them cooler in the summer.

This can be hard to do with some pitches, half pyramid comes to mind, but an a-frame is easy.

put the rain jacket at the foot end of the bag and the wind shirt at the head end …

splitter splatter …

That might work in my backyard for a night, but I've found that sort of stuff flaps around too much in a real gusty storm where splatter might be more prevalent.

tie it down

pitch it low

I have tied a rain jacket over the open end of my tarp so I wouldn't have to re-pitch when the wind changed direction.

I believe Eric meant pull the jacket over the foot end, not lay it on top. That is what I do if I'm getting condensation. However, the OP asked about a poncho tarp, so I'd guess you would not have a rain jacket to do this with. Maybe a wind shirt though.

where I hike, yes I need a bivy w/ a 8×5' tarp- the 6 oz hit is easily justified for me- no need for a ground sheet, keeps spray at bay, keeps bugs at bay and adds a few degrees to the bag

Do YOU really need a bivy with a poncho tarp? I know it's a major faux pas to answer a question with questions, but giving you a concrete answer would be a pleasant exercise in futility. We need some more information here.

How polished are your tarp skills? Do you have a practical knowledge and gained experience using a poncho tarp where YOU intend to backpack?

Do you know what the weather conditions will be like or how those weather conditions in conjunction with your intended location may alter in the event a low pressure system passes through? Check the NOAA AWS website leading up to your trip, this is a great resource that can help you in your shelter decision making process as you plan your next outing. Lots of variables to consider in deciding on a shelter for a trip.

Personally, I only take a poncho tarp and bivy in my pack when I know the weather window is projected to be mild, factoring in the worst case scenarios as well as my ability to manage those pieces of kit under a given set of conditions. I know my limitations, and pack accordingly, if there's a good chance wind and water will make their way under my tarp and compromise my insulation…. then I'll pack a more appropriate shelter for my tastes.

Alright, I'm rambling, good luck.

….to leave your bivy at home, what is the smallest tarp you'd feel comfortable with, that would give you assured protection from the elements (and name your pitch "A-frame, Half-pyramid, Lean-to, etc.)? Thx.

Bryce, I feel like you and I are in the same boat. Looking for.a tarp that is light enough for rain protection.

I think the oware cattarp 1.5 would be the one for me.

You can pitch a 5×9 tarp with the two long ends and one short end tight to the ground, if the tie-outs are placed for such a pitch. The MLD Monk and others can do this.

It is difficult to get in and out of and your bag/quilt would definitely touch the shelter walls as you move during the night, but spray in a storm would be minimal.

A 5×8 may work as well, but you'd have to be more careful about having something to block wind on the open end.

A half pyramid pitch would be roomier, but gusty rain would get you damp when the wind changes directions.

Location and additional material can really make a difference. A lean-to or other variation may be better if you have trees or rocks to pitch against.

In California, we do not have the kind of rain that is found in other parts of the country. I can stay dry with the poncho/tarp pitched close to the ground, but cooking or getting in and out is a pain. I now have a enLIGHTened Emphiany quilt in full cuben. It is waterproof, except for the seams so I don't really worry much about getting wet under a poncho/tarp where I hike. But I much prefer the roominess of a 8 X 10 tarp. So if I am sure it is going to rain, I bring the larger tarp. If rain is less than certain it is the poncho/tarp. I don't use a bivy anymore.

Steve, I want bigger than 5×9. My Golite poncho/tarp was about that size and giving myself the minimum space to get under the sucker still left me feeling vulnerable to side rain w/ no bivy. I want the ability to pitch three sides to the ground and while not quite as much headroom as my Bear Paw Cub Den 1.5, I want ~something~. :p

A few years ago as I began my backpacking journey, I made a two person Ray-Way tarp. It has a ton of space for one, but perhaps I can go a bit smaller for my current needs. The Ray-Way is a flat tarp w/ beaks….I want a cat cut, but I don't want beaks because of the added weight of additional bonded seams and material. Anyway, the thing that rocked about that tarp when pitched 3 sides to the ground, was the pullout near the base of the beak. This allowed me to create some room at the end of it to keep the tarp off the foot end of my sleeping bag:

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.522047640356.2051083.17506531&l=fc83df8ae7&type=1

I'd prob rock a similar sized tarp, but a little bit tapered down a the foot end to save weight. Of course I could go smaller, but I don't want any questions about rain splashing up under the tarp when it gets nasty out. and I am leaning towards not going with a bivy for condensation concerns.

This is a picture of my MLD pro poncho, taken during an all-night thunderstorm in Linville Gorge, NC. The coverage of this poncho tarp is such that I don't need a bivy as long as I have been smart about choosing my site. I usually bring one though to supplement warmth and block bugs and wind. Climbing mountains while wearing it in the rain is not entirely convenient though, unless I do something to raise the front hem.

I hear you Bryce. As you know I only use my 5×9 tarp with a bivy and usually only for fair weather hikes, like the Harriman hike we did.

The combination is perfectly adequate, but as you stated, not very comfortable if conditions require a tight pitch.

I took my GG Spinnshelter with the BearPaw Minimalist1 bug bivy for my longer hike, mainly for the comfort aspect and I knew the Catskills have high concentrations of mosquitoes.
That combination is bombproof and about 4 or 5 ounces heavier than the Monk and bivy combination. Having the beaks doesn't add that much weight and makes it so I don't have to get up in the middle of the night to re-pitch when it turns from a hot summer night into the storm from hell.

The beak creates a large vestibule which means I can cook in the rain.

With the Spinnshelter I can pitch with the beak rolled up for ventilation and if the weather starts blowing rain in, just reach up and roll out the beak, still half asleep in my quilt/bag:-)

I looked at the Emphiany, it certainly is a work of art, but comes at a price. I figured my JRB quilt, while heavier, still replaces a down sweater, but then u have to add in a bivy or a slightly larger tarp. I don't see a clear weight winner between the two, but I've never dealt with VPL-type stuff, and if I don't have to get used to it, I guess I won't.

8 x 10 would be a monstrously wonderful tarp, but I'm wondering if I can get away w/ smaller. We'll c.