Jun 11, 2011 at 9:00 am #1275267
Trying to understand so correct me if I am wrong…
So as I understand it the
#1 culprit, big nasty stuff, Giardia, Cryptosporidium, and other nasty
gastro bugs and parasites etc
2-3 microns in size.
Tablets or chlorine drops only and 4 hour wait time to kill hard shelled eggs.
A 1 micron filter will take these nasties out.
In theory an Aquamira Frontier pro (3 microns) or smaller will filter out these.
#2 culprit – Bacteria
Tablets or chlorine drops only and 30 minutes to kill Bacteria.
A Sawyer or other .1 micron filter would trap these.
#3 culprit – Viruses
None USA and mostly 3rd world countries, Central/south America, Africa, probably India etc
.005-.2 although one of the bad ones, Hepititis C is about .05 microns
Tablets or Chlorine drops and 30 minutes to kill viruses
A reverse osmosis filter will take out viruses
In theory a Sawyer .02 should take out most larger viruses like Hep C. but not
all of the smaller ones.
Steripen, Iodine, Boiling, Distilling, Reverse osmosis removes/kills all above, with the addition of distilling and reverse osmosis also removes salt.
Any comments or opinions welcome.
ThanksJun 11, 2011 at 9:46 am #1747864
@thefatboyLocale: St. Louis
Per the CDC, iodine does not kill crypto and chlorine dioxide is only marginally effective against crypto (pressumably more effective with longer dwell times). Further, iodine should not be used for more than a few weeks at a time (unfortunately, I've never had an excuse to use it longer than that anyway). With so many alternatives, I avoid it altogther these days.
I wouldn't presume USA is virus-free, especially if you're camping in farm country. I've never personally experienced an issue with it (or known someone who has), but lack of positives doesn't make a negative.
UV/Steripen effectiveness drops with turbidity. Very effective in clear creek water. Not so much in cloudy/muddy water.Jun 11, 2011 at 10:11 am #1747871
The one thing I have been thinking about but did not mention above is Feral Hogs in the USA.
They are everywhere, pollute water sources with all sorts of nasty stuff including E-Coli. They carry a lot of diseases like Swine flu, Swine Brucellosis, Pseudo rabies, tuberculosis and Hog Cholera for a few.
I think swine flu and swine brucillus are the same disease but not really sure.
I hunt them and am convinced I got swine flu from a hog that I cleaned.
Got extremely ill and it started just after I handled that animal.
Now I wear latex gloves when I handle them.
It wont pass human to human, just pig to human.
Some of those diseases above are viral so…
Yes I did not think about turbid water and the steripen which in that case you would still need to filter.
I guess it would still be best to filter and treat unless you have a clear water source then you could just steripen it.Jun 11, 2011 at 11:32 am #1747897
Feral hogs are certainly not everywhere. Alpine regions, for instance, have no feral hogs.Jun 11, 2011 at 11:38 am #1747899
Not the same; swine flu is a viral disease, Brucellosis is caused by a bacteria in the Brucella genus.Jun 11, 2011 at 11:49 am #1747903
@thefatboyLocale: St. Louis
>> Feral hogs are certainly not everywhere. Alpine regions, for instance, have no feral hogs.
I've never seen one in the wild, but I think the point there is that most places have something with the potential of dirtying the water.Jun 11, 2011 at 12:08 pm #1747912
Daryl and DarylParticipant
@lyrad1Locale: Pacific Northwest, USA, Earth
I was reading a Seattle Public Utilities newsletter about our water in Seattle. Our water comes from two rivers that are fed by the nearby Cascade mountains. Neither of the sources showed any crypto in the latests tests.
Crypto is one of the stumbling blocks to some of the water treatment choices with 4 hours being required by some. Given the Seattle water tests I'm wondering how common crypto is in Washington State backpacking areas.
Anyone have info?Jun 11, 2011 at 1:14 pm #1747928
well, leptospirosis is a bacteria that can be in the .1 micron range. almost all of these will get filtered out by the sawyer filter, but their .1 micron filter doesn't officially support this. so i wouldn't say .1 microns for bacteria is an absolute rule.
and yes viruses are all over the place in the US. when they show up they usually appear in the news though, to prevent outbreaks.Jun 11, 2011 at 1:25 pm #1747932
Feral hogs are certainly not everywhere in the world.
That was just an over exaggeration by me, but I bet they do inhabit areas around almost the entire Appalachian trail. Especially in the south.
I know on our land in Georgia I never saw a hog until about 4 years ago, then all of the sudden they were taking over.
As of 2007 there were around 4m wild pigs in over 40 states across the USA.
Worst at that time was Texas, which had over 2m followed by California, Florida and Hawaii.
As of now I think it is closer to 6-7m in the US and they typically double population every 5 years.
Also I read the other day that now they think the E-Coli Spinach problem was from contaminated water from feral hogs. They are really pretty nasty animals.Jun 11, 2011 at 1:44 pm #1747937
@gregfLocale: Canadian Rockies
One note on the Frontier pro is that it only removes to 3 log (99.9%) of crypto whereas something like a sawyer .1 micron will remove 7 log (99.9999%) of crypto and giardia. I think EPA guides are 5 log or 6 log to be completely protected.
Now I have had crypto from contaminated well water from a farm. It sucks and you are sick for weeks but still functional. So if you are not thru hiking I think people worry too much about water treatment unless you are in pastureland.Jun 11, 2011 at 2:01 pm #1747946
I would just as soon not get sick on a day hike or a thru hike.
Its worth a few extra ounces.
Sounds like to me to be totally protected…
If you were going to try to go only filter, you would really need a Sawyer .02 filter to be protected from everything.
If filter combined with tablets/drops and to trap/kill viruses, then a .1 sawyer or other .1 filter would be a good one.
If no filter most of the time just a Steripen with a backup filter of some sort in case you get stuck with tepid water.Jun 11, 2011 at 3:29 pm #1747969
@rcaffinLocale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
A couple of corrections.
#1: E coli from your own hands or your partner's hands (at least in the USA). Yep, self-infection is the cause of most gastro in the back country, especially among young males. Wash your hands!
> None USA
Absolutely ***WRONG***. Totally and utterly ***WRONG***. A common myth, but WRONG.
Viruses are as wide-spread in the USA as anywhere else in the world.
High mountain water is usually fairly clean. Anything downstream of a farm or habitation is likely to have chemicals, bacteria and viruses. Downstream of intensive farming like pigs is often toxic.
CheersJun 11, 2011 at 3:42 pm #1747974
@retiredjerryLocale: Oregon and Washington
You can infect yourself from fecal matter to your hands to your mouth?
I've thought that was the case but if you already have the bacteria in your gut how can it affect you?
I guess it can go upstream to a location where there were none of that bacteria.Jun 11, 2011 at 4:30 pm #1747986
Not sure if you can infect yourself instantly, but hands left unwashed after a #2 can grow all sorts of nasty germs.
Unwashed hands to food prep one typical way Hepatitis A is spread.Jun 12, 2011 at 8:41 am #1748145
Does anyone have any validated data on this? Referenced to published work? I suppose opinion might be worth something but I would rather base a decision in data.Jun 12, 2011 at 8:58 am #1748151
Validated data as far as what ??
Bug, bacteria, virus sizes vs filtration and treatment or washing hands.Jun 12, 2011 at 6:51 pm #1748351
@scfhomeLocale: Chocorua NH, USA
> Chlorine is ineffective vs. crypto
> Iodine is dangerous beyond very limited doses, especially to the thyroid.
> UV cannot penetrate less than crystal clear water
> All of the above require considerable waiting, sometimes longer than it takes to boil and cool water
So what to do?
Forget about superlight where health and survival are at stake, and carry a good filter, 2 microns or less, and carry a small vial of iodine pills in case the filter fails – if it is mechanical, it can break. Very satisfied with the Walkabout, but understand that the (formerly)Pur Hiker is most preferred, but may be more subject to freeze-up. Don't like waiting on the gravity ones.
One other possible solution are the pumps that rely on oxygenation from salt. These are widely used for home water supplies. It would be nice to know more about the effectiveness and utility of the small, portable units.
And agree that if we don't keep ourselves and our kit clean, we will get sick anyway.Jun 12, 2011 at 7:06 pm #1748359
@rcaffinLocale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
> You can infect yourself from fecal matter to your hands to your mouth?
Forgive me if I express total amazement!!!!!
Is the American education system that appallingly bad that basic personal hygeine concepts are not taught?????
OK, OK, I'm an obnoxious Australian. Forgive me.
Yes, that is the primary path for getting gastro. Faecal matter gets onto your hands and then into your mouth. From your mouth it goes down into your stomach and the bacteria multiply there. That causes severe gastro.
The bacteria come from your intestines. They are crucial to your survival: without those bacteria in your intestines you **DIE**. It is the bacteria in your intestines which digest the food you eat and supply energy and other nutrients to your body. Without them you **DIE**. Medically speaking, they are symbiotic with you.
But, and this is the key point, there is a valve between your stomach and your intestines. Bacteria cannot travel backwards from your intestines to your stomach. You can only infect your stomach through your mouth. And young males off by themselves without a parent to tell them to wash their hands, get gastro. It's as simple as that.
CheersJun 12, 2011 at 7:15 pm #1748372
Oh call me a fuddy-duddy, but the OP seemed to be asking a question on the quality of water treatment needed. Although forum members opinions are certainly entertaining, it seems to me that this is an issue where actual data should be presented. Roger states that water-bourne viruses are present in the US – are there documented cases of this? What and where are they? How effective are water filters at eliminating typical contaminants present in the water we may encounter? This is measurable and although we may have opinions, it would be interesting to see that actual data.
After all, I thought this forum was about bringing the lightest solution set that will meet the needs of the anticipated conditions, not every conceivable condition. We could of course recommend filtration (to reduce turbidity) followed by UV and then perhaps a rolling boil to really make sure.
This reference seemed to have some data and references in it – http://zenbackpacking.net/WaterFilterPurifierTreatment.htm#VirusesJun 12, 2011 at 7:23 pm #1748380
@scfhomeLocale: Chocorua NH, USA
Don't think you will be able to outdo Roger.Jun 12, 2011 at 7:29 pm #1748384
Maybe this is what you are looking for ??
"Several recent studies suggest that approximately 20 percent of the surface and ground source waters in the U.S. are contaminated with viruses"
My preference now is a Sawyer .1 filter and chlorine for the viruses. I just set up a geigerrig pressure bag and a sawyer 3 way filter. Not SUL but nice.
I have been using a slow gravity feed Aquamira frontier pro and chlorine, but at 3 microns I dont trust it.
I am working on another rig that will be lighter. Basically a Sawyer squeeze .1 filter with a couple of 1L platys. Should be about 7oz total without the chlorine.Jun 13, 2011 at 4:57 pm #1748740
@ouzelLocale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
"Is the American education system that appallingly bad that basic personal hygeine concepts are not taught?????"
"OK, OK, I'm an obnoxious Australian. Forgive me."
Keep up the good work!
"Medically speaking, they are symbiotic with you."
They outnumber the cells in our Body.
CheersJun 13, 2011 at 5:13 pm #1748749
There are several billion people worldwide that dont have a clue how there bodies work, including Australia. Food goes in and p00p goes out and thats about it, much less daily hygiene.
God just look at the condition of the Ganges river and people bath in it every day.Jun 13, 2011 at 5:15 pm #1748752
: )Jun 13, 2011 at 5:17 pm #1748754
>> Food goes in and p00p goes out
Yes, for now, but after Climate Change kicks in fully, that, sadly, will reverse.
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