Going Wool? share your knowledge

> I really mean developing an acquired taste for something.

Hmm… I guess you missed my earlier point. The point of my beer & coffee example is that sometimes you just aren’t going to develop the taste for something. When there is a good alternative, you should stop wasting your time trying to acquire a taste you think you should have, and spend your time enjoying what you like.

It seems to me that some people think that everyone should develop a taste for wool. It’s almost as if they think there is a morale imperative. That’s silly. There are other materials which have decent performance characteristics. As I said before: people should hike their own hike and not feel compelled to learn to love something that isn’t working for them. It’s great that you have found wool to be an effective part of your clothing system. But there are people with just as much experience as you, who have faces similar conditions, and made other choices.

>here you will learn to like the stuff and thus develop an acquired taste for
> wool is during hardcore winter backpacking treks, multi-day trips,
> where you are on your own, self sufficient and its a “no sh*t” trip. And
> where its COLD and windy!

While I most likely don’t have as much experience as you in the listed conditions, I have a moderate amount of experience. I used a wool shirt for a ten year period in which every year including at least 1 multi-week trips and at least monthly 2-4 night trips. That was plenty of time to learn to love wool. During that time I respected the wool shirts performance… but I didn’t enjoy it.

The mild and dry sierras have made many of us Californian soft, we do have spots like the lost coast which can remind use what it’s like to be cool and soggy. But just because some of us live in California doesn’t mean that’s where we have spent all of our time. My first 20 years backpack was mostly on the east coast, central canada, with special trips to the rockies. I know what it’s like to spend week+ times when the temp doesn’t get above -10F or to be on trips where the temp hovered around 35F and rains or mists continuously for 4 days and nights with no break.

It was in those conditions I came to discover (and to love) the early high performance synthetics like polypro. I hated the smell, but the low water absorption and the lack of scratch won me over quickly. While having bigger pains made the scratchiness of wool fade I have noticed two things this summer when I retried wool (mostly using a smartwool merino long sleeve light-weight tee: (1) Accumulation of irritation can be fatiguing over time even if you don’t notice it. (2) I am not always pushing hard. I do stop and take in the view. I lay down to sleep. When I am doing that I was to fully enjoy the experience, not notice that my shoulders are really irritated.

My experience is that some of the modern synthetics retain the positive attributes of the earlier synthetics while narrowing (if not catching up) to attributes which wool had the upper hand.

If you haven’t gotten my point yet, I will say it one more time. Wool works well for maybe people, but there are other people that have found alternatives which work better for them than wool.

Regarding Mark’s comments on wool and itchiness — that’s how I remember wool, The old wool shirts and pants were horribly itchy, but this new stuff just doesn’t seem like wool at all…..it’s soooo expensive though.

Hi Roman:

As I mentioned, I have tried some of the modern merino wool, but still found that my shoulder and back got red and irritated. My wife is even worse (no wool gloves for hats for her). Why? I don’t know. Maybe it’s an allergy like what Michael Martin mentioned… though that doesn’t explain why wool socks and gloves work for me. Whatever reason, I have found that synthetics are the best option for me.

Lots of people (including me) have noted that high quality merino wool is a lot more comfortable than the wool shirts we wore in the 70s. Likewise, I would note that synthetics have been improving. There was a time when polypro was the best synthetic going. Stink and clamminess were big problems. The advent of some better anti-microbe treatments, and directional wicking have made significant improvements. Folks that haven’tried some of the modern bipolar synthetics, might want give them a try if.

–mark

I too prefer synthetics. In the right weave/knit they are much cooler than wool IMHO, which is good when you tend to overheat.

Stink? I agree with Roger this one. I’m much worse off than the clothes on my back. A good rinse and a spin cycle above the head does wonders for odor control. Besides, who wants to get rid of those manly pheromones anyways?

Warmth? I have other clothing that deals with warmth much better. If anything, I’d rather it keep me cool while hiking.

Wet? Again I’d rather have synthetic high loft jacket than wool. Lighter and quicker drying.

Again this just my preference. I’ve had wool in my clothing arsenal for two years or so and can directly compare. My choice…synthetics.

Vlad,

see what you have started here on BPL Forums with all your talk of wool.

You have many more sharing your point of view than you may have thought when you first posted on this topic. Even DrJ has a lot of good things to say about wool.

Thanks for stirring up some good discussion on an important subject.

Also, thanks for making your position on synths a bit clearer.

Hope you had a good holiday with your family.

Hi Brett,

Just so everyone knows, I’m from Ibex so of course I’m bias.

We do make a fantastic wool hooded piece called the Hooded Shak: http://www.ibexwear.com/F06/View_Product.php?GarmentID=607&thePhoto=../Photos/F06/620_46938.jpg&Category=1045&CategoryLine= (for both men and women) that does contain thumb loops and a pocket on the left chest (which apparently have been said to get in the way of a pack strap – I have not found this to be the case and I have used it in adventure racing).

And Eric is correct! We will be dropping this piece for F07 so like you said, get them while you can. Made in the US out of 100% NZ Merino using 18.5 yarn.

I’d love to hear back from those that have this piece. I have two and love them both.

Cheers!
Reid

First, I discovered my favorite all around always wear and only carry one pair socks are …. Wool … not capilene like I thought. Silly me. The Patagonia expedition weight socks rock. (See reader review under clothing.)

Second, since I don’t like writing about things I am not that thrilled with … I can’t wait to replace my Mountain Hardwear balaclava with a merino wool/blend balaclava. I have a hunch the wool balaclava will handle moisture from breathing much better. The synthetic gets moist, cold, and then feels pretty uncomfortable here on Mt. Lassen where it was 1 degree F yesterday morning — and our gear isn’t just used for packing, we wear it as part of daily life, like going to the Post Office.

I am also looking forward to getting an ultralight beanie hat and glove liners. Ditto for long johns and long sleeve base layer (which will probly come from Patagoochie.) Anyone know what brands or stores and places to find such light weight items … specially w/o the high prices?

There are two big issues for me in choice of new gear right now: (1) Down v. Synthetics (because of water sogging down v. comfort and that special feeling of down gear V. water handling capacity of synthetics v. the plastic fantastic feeling of synthetics) and (2) wool v. synthetic clothing (Insport fleece for example). Again, this is a big issue for us because we live in the stuff and may just get stuck in zero degree or so snow storm some night out on the highway, so the gear goes in the car when we drive down the mountain to go the big city (Redding, CA) and our lives could depend on it on a daily basis in the winter.

Hi Shawn,

Great post and comments. Yes, I believe REI did pull out simply because other companies were doing a great job (Icebreaker, Ibex) producing high-quality garments. It was a battle not worth fighting.

More than likely, the wool REI was using was similar to what other companies use (NZ Merino); however, on a level playing field of fiber, the finishing touches make a garment superior. On the flip side, over processing can leave the garment feel “silicony” and greasy. Silicone is actually part of the mix of what some companies use to finish their fabrics. (Ibex does not.)

Additionally, the processing of the Merino fiber coats the cuticles so that in a 21 – 18.5 (and even 17.5) garment there is no itch. The coating also prevents the cuticles from locking together, virtually eliminating the shrinkage one would experience with Loden fiber or even “old wool.”

Keep up the wool spirit!

Reid

Another tidbit to share: AU has been experiencing a dramatic drought for the past 5 growing seasons which, as you can imagine, have stressed the heard. Think about the growth rings in a tree during times of drought. The price/bale is also precipitously climbing.

17.5 micros are where we draw the line at Ibex. We could use 16, etc. but the cost/benefits really start to deviate at that point. One of our best sellers, and most expensive shirts, is called the Nelson, which is made of 17.5 (NZ) for $110. The Nelson (and Kate, which is the woman’s counterpart) has such amazing fiber quality that it’s worn as a luxury piece AND I supply our adventure racers and endurance trail runners with it. That’s the beauty of Merino that cannot be matched by hours in the lab. The fiber is luxurious by design and highly technical by nature. Truly amazing stuff, which is why I’m here!

Reid

Oh another thing, about this “stinky” factor many complain about in relation to synthetics. My personal opinion about this and this is MY personal opinion is…WHO CARES?!? Think about it…thats part of backpacking. At least multi-day trip backpacking.

Unless perhaps you are a teen and in that puberty stage where your glands are going haywire and you have extremely oily skin and hair, I say who cares about stinking on the trail. If you are a teen in that puberty stage, you can indeed stink to high heaven on the trail. Adults and anyone post puberty (this is kinda gross but it has to be said IMO) can survive while stinking badly.

Stinking is part of being a backpacker. There are few ways to avoid it, except to possibly do all or most of your backpacking in very low humidity, arid climates like the Southwestern USA. Personally I found I could go two weeks without a shower in New Mexico (VERY low humidity), wearing mostly cotton clothing! Sweating like a pig everyday.

In normal to higher humidity conditions, find a stream or river and jump into it at the end of the day. Wash off…

Keep your hair cut real short before you go into the backcountry…thats a good start to stay clean and help the stinky factor away some. It also helps you find ticks easier on your scalp. Dont wear a beard or mustache before starting a trip either.

Since its a major no no to use deoderants and anti-perspirants in bear country anyway, you are going to stink probably no matter what you wear if you are in bear country. If not in bear country, take that can of anti-perspirant with you and use it daily.

Finally, the ultimate “anti-stink” technique to use in the backcountry is to carry liquid betadine iodine solution with you and rub it under your armpits, your feet and even in your crotch area. Betadine iodine KILLS all that bacteria that causes that nasty stink and you will find that using betadine iodine in those areas once every few days goes a long, long way towards keeping you from stinking too badly.

Although when all is said and done, stinking is part of being a backpacker.

Vlad

Vlad,

see what you have started here on BPL Forums with all your talk of wool.

You have many more sharing your point of view than you may have thought when you first posted on this topic. Even DrJ has a lot of good things to say about wool.

Thanks for stirring up some good discussion on an important subject.

Also, thanks for making your position on synths a bit clearer.

Hope you had a good holiday with your family.

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Hey man…

Yeah, looks like I maybe have started some sort of mini “UL revolt.” Ive started a UL insurrection of the worst kind, but thats alright cause starting insurrections is OK with me.

hehehe…<evil grin>

Guilty of revolutionary activities, man.

Vlad

>Wool works well for maybe people, but there are other people that have found alternatives which work better for them than wool.

I have wool base layer shirts from Icebreaker and Smartwool, but I prefer to wear a synthetic base layer for performance reasons. I wear Athletic Works (WalMart), Microfiber Life by Jockey (WalMart), and NordicTrack (Sears) which are made of 81% polyester and 19% elastane/spandex and are like Under Armour but much cheaper. I find that this material wicks better and dries faster than wool and other synthetics (polypro, Capilene, MTS). I can literally soak it and wear it dry in 15 minutes. When I’m sweating it keeps me cool, and when it’s dry it keeps me warm. Further, I’ve found that this material doesn’t stink as bad as other synthetics. At least, it doesn’t smell any worse than I do after a week on the trail, and a quick rinse in plain water removes most of the smell. YMMV, of course (that’s the point).

As for socks, I’m a confirmed Merino wool user.

“And Eric is correct! We will be dropping this piece for F07 so like you said, get them while you can. Made in the US out of 100% NZ Merino using 18.5 yarn. “

Reid, say it ain’t so! This is a bad trend. Everything I like gets discontinued. First the Tioga Hoody and now the hooded Shak. I live in these when it’s cold. I wear the Breezer Briefs every day, all year long. Please, please, please bring them back. The Roasters can’t be worn year round, besides chestnuts are for roasting not… Will there be a hoody with thumb cuff holes in the Ibex line? There are a number of people here who would like this. In another thread Bill showed how he made his own. A light weight version in a light color would be much appreciated as well as a dark mid weight. I can specify details if you would like. I hesitate to say this but…I really like the Ibex polo shirts. I wear them nearly every day throughout the spring, summer and fall. Please, don’t kill them either. As you can tell I’m a very loyal customer (running out of things to buy). You can contact me by email, if you would like, by clicking on my picture to the left, or respond here.

On another topic, I’ve thought about adding some lanolin back to my garments. Would this improve or ruin the performance of my Ibex wool garments? I’m thinking it would improve the water resistance and decrease absorption.

I gotta agree with the person with the all green arctic avatar (if yer really doin tradin cards, send me one of those please … I’m thinkin of changing mine periodically just for the fun of it so don’t waste time on mine) …

… who cares about how you smell on the trail … unless you are on a date or don’t wanna date a bear or cougar — although they would be preferrable to my ex (by the way Brett — where did you get the picture of my ex and her twin sister when you started this thread?), but that’s another story. They, the bear or cougar – not my ex – may think its a dieing animule or sumpin tasty. In any case, my native american side tells me bein clean and not smellin has an important place in tracking, hunting – and thereby eating – but half the fun of getting out there without buildings, bosses, and the buzz of the Modern American world is just being — which means no showers or baths more often than not.

An old Asian friend of mine claims showering with soap too much weakens the skin and opens the pores to bacteria and infection … how is that for a rationale.

I rely on my partner to tell me … “you stink” … then, if she says that, I know I’m really gonna need the insulating pads and heavier sleeping bag. Thus, I am ready for the Merino Wool and less Stink Factor.

Anyone else notice that it’s harder to tell others have B.O. when no one has showered for “N” days?

First day at Philmont, seemed like all the troops coming in off the mountain smelled pretty bad. Last day at Philmont coming off the mountain, didn’t seem like anyone smelled…. :)

I remember when I was fourteen years old…decades ago. And I did my very first BSA 50 miler that started two days after Christmas. I wore mostly wool stuff and had a down sleeping bag that I ferociously protected against the wetness, along with a wool blanket to supplement the bag.

It got very cold during that five days and we had freezing rain or sleet…I cant remember which it was now it was so long ago. We also had some wet snow. Most people dropped out, including my best friend at the time.

It was physically hard as hell, but SO MUCH FUN!

The most fun was when I finished and there was my Mom and my sister parked there in that old Buick, waiting for me to drive back home. I got in and felt like I could kick the world’s ass.

Driving home, I took off my wool shirt and field coat I had on…just a T-shirt underneath. And BAM! all of a sudden it hit…my Mom and sister could smell me and complained YOU STINK! I’d gone six days without a bath and humped 50 miles in the winter.

I smelled like an animal or something. Wrank…disgusting. But I didnt care at the time cause everybody else in that trek was in the same boat and it wasnt a social situation. IT WAS BACKPACKING!

I just laughed at them…I had my 50 miler patch in my hand. But boy, did that hot bath and shower feel soooooooo good when I got home! LOL

Vlad

I gotta agree with the person with the all green arctic avatar (if yer really doin tradin cards, send me one of those please … I’m thinkin of changing mine periodically just for the fun of it so don’t waste time on mine) …

… who cares about how you smell on the trail … unless you are on a date or don’t wanna date a bear or cougar — although they would be preferrable to my ex (by the way Brett — where did you get the picture of my ex and her twin sister when you started this thread?), but that’s another story. They, the bear or cougar – not my ex – may think its a dieing animule or sumpin tasty. In any case, my native american side tells me bein clean and not smellin has an important place in tracking, hunting – and thereby eating – but half the fun of getting out there without buildings, bosses, and the buzz of the Modern American world is just being — which means no showers or baths more often than not.

An old Asian friend of mine claims showering with soap too much weakens the skin and opens the pores to bacteria and infection … how is that for a rationale.

I rely on my partner to tell me … “you stink” … then, if she says that, I know I’m really gonna need the insulating pads and heavier sleeping bag. Thus, I am ready for the Merino Wool and less Stink Factor.

This post was edited by bdavis at 11/30/2006 15:47:37 MST.

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Yeah…this is about how I feel as my earlier post so graphically pointed out. You know, I have actually had a lot of people tell me that is one of the MAIN reasons why they dislike camping and especially, backpacking. “You cant take a shower at the end of the day? How do you deal with that? And the bugs?” I used to get asked that a lot.

I never even thought about it…didnt care even. Maybe it was cause I wore wool in the winter, I dont know.

Vlad

My Daddy used to say, “Clean mind, clean body, choose one!” I chose a clean mind.

If you still need your itchy and scratchy fix order up some Stanfield’s lambswool black long underwear in heavy rib knit, top, bottom, or union suit at http://www.davidmorgan.com. Very popular with cloistered folks in certain monasteries for hair shirt substitutes.

bd,
A search for “ex” on the internet brings up many strange pictures, including maybe those two merino sheep. They may be overfed, but I like their wool.
I just got my first Icebreaker shirt yesterday and tried it out. It has a little bit of itch to it; whereas my Monbell LW 1/4 zips have none at all. Icebreaker must process the wool differently?
I want to try Ibex, but it is just too expensive compared to the competition which can be found at steep discount. If I can find Ibex at about 50% off Ill try it.
The Icebreakeer itch is barely noticeable, so I can use it as a base layer, or second layer(intended use).

Is anyone going to start the “Going Silk? Share your experience” thread?? I can’t because I don’t have any..

What with all the conversation here at this board regarding the heaviness of wool, I have forgotten to mention an extremely important wool fact. For whatever reason, I have found that I can easily get by with just one pair of wool pants and shirt per every five to six days on the trail in wintertime. Ditto with wool long underwear.

This DOES NOT apply to wool socks! Although Ive found that I can easily get by with two or three pairs of wool ragg socks per 5 to 6 days on the trail.

I would think this “only need one set of clothes per five or six days” would negate most UL arguments against wool for being heavy. And settle this debate.

I am guessing the reason why I can easily get by with only one set of wool clothes per weekly period because yes, wool doesnt retain odor like other fabrics.

Of course, I am talking from personal experience here which means I am talking about wool products which are composed mostly of wool and not wool with a sizable percentage of synthetics mixed in.

Just one more reason why wool kicks butt.

Vlad

What I know about wool, to be wool it must come from sheep …anything else, down from the brushtail possum, alpaca,cashmere,hamster down, or elephant ear tufts are animal fibers but not wool.
But what we really need is SUL pashmina garments from pashmina goats in India and Nepal. This really should the next big thing for Bozeman and Ryan to tackle, of course it will be brutally expensive and it will also not be wool…

**Disclaimer: I work for Ibex

Hey Eric,

Thank for the comments. Truth be told, and I want to be honest with you. Although the Tioga and Shak Hoody are great tops and we’ve developed a group of hard-core followers, its sell thru numbers are not as strong as we had hoped. The Shak Full Zip and Shak 1/2 Zip are our best sellers from the Shak collection. The Hooded just didn’t perform as great as we had hoped. The same was true for the Tioga, unfortunately, although we are still making a woman’s version.

In regard to your lanolin question, I need to ask you some in return:

1) Why!

2) What is your source of lanolin?

3) Do you have a lab?
But seriously, the only way to add lanolin and natural oils back into the the garment would be to microscopically inject it back into each fiber. Unless time is no issue and you have the lab set up, go for it! I think if you were to rub lanolin on the outside of the garment it would work short-term but certainly wash out during the next cycle in the machine. At Ibex, we use a cold water wash to process our Loden, Merino, and O-Wool which, unlike boiling, allows for “a lot” of the natural oils in the fiber to remain in place. It also helps maintain the natural softness and weather resistance of the fiber and eventually garment.

Hope this helps. But if you do try it please let me know what happens. Wonder if that would void our warranty ;-)

Best,
Reid

Hey Vlad,

I would assume that your “wool socks” probably have some synthetics woven in such as, Spandex, Lycra, etc. Check out the label. That’s what will more than likely retain the order you are experiencing.

It’s difficult to make a 100% pure Merino sock due to the fact that the fiber will usually not stand up to that much abuse. Lycra, etc. is often used to give the sock a nice stretch and hug-factor, too.

Let me know what the label says. I could be 100% pure, New Zealand wrong!

Best,
Reid

Another thing, Eric:

One of our product developers has a pair of Ibex woolies tops and bottoms that she’s test-dried something like 15 times.

They are a little dried out so we thought putting some lanolin on them might be a good experiment. Mind you, the fiber will not fully absorb the oil but it will coat the outside enough where it might just work!

Great thinking, Eric!! I’ll let you know on Monday how they feel. It would be good to wash-test them after as well.

Happy Friday,
Reid